Blood!

[Lucy2103]

Come home to find blood on my guinea pigs face, on inspection its come from either the vagina/anus as this is where blood is sitting. Completely clear urine. The blood we found was red strong blood which was also on her bedding so we initally thought injury but no, and blood still present at genital area. Acting completely normally. Will be going to vet in the morning asap. Had both girls out running around on clean towels and again, urine completely clear on cream towels. Perplexed at where this deep strong red blood has come from. If it was urine infection or stone I'd have expected bloody urine? Any ideas? She does keep rubbing her bum on the towel though, like a little drag every now and then but happily zooming and eating.

 

[Wiebke]

Come home to find blood on my guinea pigs face, on inspection its come from either the vagina/anus as this is where blood is sitting. Completely clear urine. The blood we found was red strong blood which was also on her bedding so we initally thought injury but no, and blood still present at genital area. Acting completely normally. Will be going to vet in the morning asap. Had both girls out running around on clean towels and again, urine completely clear on cream towels. Perplexed at where this deep strong red blood has come from. If it was urine infection or stone I'd have expected bloody urine? Any ideas? She does keep rubbing her bum on the towel though, like a little drag every now and then but happily zooming and eating.

Hi

Please keep an eye on it.

My gut instinct is that it could be the very start of a potential urinary tract infection, either bacterial (UTI) or sterile (better known as IC/interstitial cystitis, which cannot be healed by an antibiotic, only managed).
Both infections are characterised by intense dark red pees from a natural dye called porphyrin at the onset - this is what the patch is looking like to me; sheer fresh blood is lighter.

Symptoms can be very haphazard initially; clear pees can follow a porphyrine pee and either of them can test positive and negative of the presence of bloods as well as coming (or not) with squeaky pees. It usually takes several days for symptoms to firm up. The difference between the two issues is that the urine infection is caused by an overgrowth of faecal bacteria in the urinary tract while a sterile cystitis has the same other infection markers but a much lower (only rarely zero) bacterial count in the urine than you would expect.

Your vet may also want to check for potential stones/sludge, just to be on the safe side.

Please see a vet sometime in the coming week during regular opening hours. All the best.

 

[Lucy2103]

Thank you so much. Ringing as soon as it opens shortly!

 

[Lucy2103]

So the vet yesterday has given baytril 0.4ml twice a day and metacam 2kg dose once a day. He said this should be enough for 2 weeks... he didn't mention anything about pro biotics but I have just suddenly thought of this. Should she be having this for a 2 week course? If so please can you post links to any you recommend, I'm in England. I previously bought a powder from amazon I believe.
Thank you!

 

[Piggies&buns]

It’s advised to give a probiotic. Personally I use fibreplex - it’s a paste in a premarked syringe.

You can use, as well as a commercial probiotic, poop soup made from the healthy poops of a healthy companion

Probiotics & Live Gut Microbiome Transfer ('Poo Soup'); Recovery Formula Foods And Vitamin C: Overview With Product Links and Transfer Recipe

 

[Lucy2103]

How soon should we expect to see an improvement? It will be a week on Wednesday so still early. We've been given 2 weeks of antibiotics. Still making zero pain noises, totally normal otherwise but still little bits of blood around the cage. Her pee is clear. Sometimes when we pick her up to check it is totally clear and other times there is blood around her private parts. Is there anything else logical that this could be? Are these symptoms of blood with no pain noises common for cystitis? When we first bought her, only 5 days in we noticed pain noises so suspected she'd come to us with cystitis. With this there was no blood at all but pain noises every time she peed. So this is totally different with no pain noises and blood. The first time it took 4 weeks of antibiotics and metacam. Would a stone cause pain and obvious pain noises? Are there any reproductive issues that can cause bleeding? Just finding the lack of pain noises strange. I know they hide pain but there's not even a flinch or wince when peeing which I'd expect if in pain or if it was a stone. Thank you

 

[Lucy2103]

It’s advised to give a probiotic. Personally I use fibreplex - it’s a paste in a premarked syringe.

You can use, as well as a commercial probiotic, poop soup made from the healthy poops of a healthy companion

Probiotics & Live Gut Microbiome Transfer ('Poo Soup'); Recovery Formula Foods And Vitamin C: Overview With Product Links and Transfer Recipe

Hello, the blood cleared up after 2 weeks of antibiotics so we presumed it was an infection. She's been fine for about 6 weeks and now we've noticed more blood again, she's been on baytril again 0.4 daily. She'll have been on it for 2 weeks on Saturday but still noticed blood today. The vet that's been treating her is phoning me tomorrow. With the information that it cleared up last time for about 6 weeks but there is blood again, what would your thoughts be? We gave metacam last time with the baytril but only baytril this time. Do you think that's why we are still finding blood? What would your thoughts be knowing the history etc. Again, absolutely no indication of pain. No pain noises at all or anything. Whereas when she was 12 weeks old and came to us with a uti, she was wincing and clearly in pain. Thank you!

 

[Lucy2103]

Hello, the blood cleared up after 2 weeks of antibiotics so we presumed it was an infection. She's been fine for about 6 weeks and now we've noticed more blood again, she's been on baytril again 0.4 daily. She'll have been on it for 2 weeks on Saturday but still noticed blood today. The vet that's been treating her is phoning me tomorrow. With the information that it cleared up last time for about 6 weeks but there is blood again, what would your thoughts be? We gave metacam last time with the baytril but only baytril this time. Do you think that's why we are still finding blood? What would your thoughts be knowing the history etc. Again, absolutely no indication of pain. No pain noises at all or anything. Whereas when she was 12 weeks old and came to us with a uti, she was wincing and clearly in pain. Thank you!

Sorry that was meant to say 0.4 twice daily

 

[Tory93]

When you went to the vets originally did they test the urine or just assume a UTI?

I wonder, if she wasnt tested before and was on metacam it may have helped with bladder inflammation and then since coming off of it the bladder has become inflamed again - which would indicate more on the side of IC rather than UTI. It might be woth talking to your vet about taking a glucosamine supplement.

One of my piggies is on ongoing cystease (glucosamine supplement) for IC. Her symptoms are blood in urine and occasionally squeaky wees. During a rough patch she is on 2 tablets a day, we then reduce down to 1 a day.

Hope you get to the bottom of it xx

 

[Piggies&buns]

As wiebke mentioned in her first reply, sterile cystitis is a possibility if the symptoms keep returning. IC is characterised by the symptoms of a bacterial UTI but there is little bacteria actually present. Antibiotics may suppress the symptoms and a piggy can appear to get better but it won’t cure it as there is little bacterial load to cure. This is why testing the urine is important. Little bacterial load with UTI symptoms would suggest IC.
Piggies with IC will get repeated flares but not all piggies will display intense pain during the flares.

IC can be managed with glucosamine to coat the bladder and pain relief when needed.
All other urinary issues including sludge, stones and a bacterial infection need to be ruled out before sterile cystitis can be the diagnosis though.

 

[Lucy2103]

Thank you for all of that information! 2 weeks after the antibiotics 6ish weeks ago, the vet did a urine analysis and it was totally clear of any bloods and proteins etc. He couldn't find a single thing wrong but obviously this was after 2 weeks of metacam and baytril. Can I only get the glucosamine from the vet? Thank you

 

[Piggies&buns]

Thank you for all of that information! 2 weeks after the antibiotics 6ish weeks ago, the vet did a urine analysis and it was totally clear of any bloods and proteins etc. He couldn't find a single thing wrong but obviously this was after 2 weeks of metacam and baytril. Can I only get the glucosamine from the vet? Thank you

No, glucosamine isn’t a medication, it’s a supplement so you don’t need to get it from a vet.

The one which is commonly use is cystease

 

[Lucy2103]

No, glucosamine isn’t a medication, it’s a supplement so you don’t need to get it from a vet.

The one which is commonly use is cystease

Thank you! Is this the one for cats? How would I administer please, and dosage? Thank you

 

[fluffysal]

I don't use the cystease. Dignified Sir George has the johnsons 4 joints dog strength liquid, 0.4 mls. He begs for it every morning so it must be tasty. I buy it on amazon.

 

[Tory93]

Yeah the Cystease is for cats, for a bit flare up I do 1 tablet in the morning, 1 in the evening, they are in capsules so you need to pull them apart. I usually pour the powder into a pot, mix it with 2ml water and give it to her in a syringe. She wasn't sure the first time I gave it to her but loves it now and comes over to me when I am prepping it. After a week or so I then drop to 1 capsule but split the dose morning and evening, if she starts squeaking or blood reappears j go back to 2 capsules a day.

It is worth just double checking with your vet to rule anything else out like stones etc. Good luck

 

[Piggies&buns]

Glucosamine is absolutely fine to give but you do need to have everything else ruled out ie she needs to be checked for stones, sludge etc as they require action to be taken

 

[MMasters]

Glucosamine has to be administered in the correct amount. You can order Cosequin for cat, which is powder. But glucosamine for bladder problems hasn't been researched. It's mostly been researched for arthiritis in guinea pig, and if I remember correctly, bone infection to reduce inflammation.

What has been researched for bladder problems in guinea pigs is CARTROPHEN. If you go to Facebook and search for "The CAVY SAVVY GUINEA PIG COMMUNITY", go that page, and then search for "CARTROPHEN", you will find one or posts where cartrophen is discussed. It works well.

NOTE: Be sure to go the correct CAVY SAVVY facebook page. It is moderated by exotic animal vets, who are guinea pig experts. Do not make the mistake of going to "CAVY SAVVY GUINEA PIG HELP" page, which is a rescue run, whose owner thinks she is an expert, but I have found some of her advice to be incorrect or perhaps even harmful!

Another treatment that I have used is making barley water. Put 2.5 cups water in a pan and 1/2 cup barley. Use the old-fashioned barley pearl, not the instant breakfast flakes. Heat the barley to boiled, stirring ocassionally so it doesn't stick to the bottom of the pan, then reduce heat and simmer until the barley is soft. There should be water in the pan too. If all the water is gone, then you overcooked the barley, but that's okay. Just add some water (about 1/2) and stir. The water will be cloudy. Pour the water into a small bowl and let it cool. DO NOT USE A STRAINER. When the water is room temperature, get a 1 ml syringe ( no needle) and give your piggie at least 2 ml orally. If she wants more, give her as much as she wants (the more the merrier)

Give her barley water twice a day. What it does is coat the bladder, urethra, and it also helps the kidneys. This is an excellent treatment to help a piggie with any kind of urinary problems (except obstruction) and it's very safe. My guinea pig finally started drinking barley water from one of his small ceramic bowls. So, I would give her a little bit twice a day (I think I measured 10 ml - just enough to cover the bottom of the bowl) and later once a day. After the first week, I gave it to her 3 times a week and the following week, she got better.

You can store barley water in the fridge if you put plastic wrap over the bowl you poured it into from the pan. It will turn into a gel. No problem. Take a spoonful, add a tiny bit of water, and heat in your microwave for a few seconds. Stir, and now you have barley water again.

What about the barley itself that's leftover in the pan? Give some to your guinea pigs as a treat. And be sure to help yourself also.

Peter Gurney discovered the value of barley for treating urinary system problems. You can also give pure apricot nectar. Do NOT give cranberry juice. Why not? Well, you can once or twice a week. But cranberries are high in oxylate (like basil), so it should only be given sparingly. Whereas apricot juice, you can give it once a day. Both juices work the same: they coat the urethra (and to some extent the bladder), which reduces pain and it also helps get rid of bacteria AND prevents bacteria from getting in from the outside. I had better luck with barley water than juice concerning sludge in the urine or "dirty urine", which has "sand" that is actually tiny solid particles, probably calcium, which is the most common thing a "bladder stone" is made of.

So, another thing you have to do is get rid of excess calcium in the diet. This means no alfala-based dry food (choose Oxbow Cavy Cuisine or Versele Laga Complete Cavia instead), no endive, kale, collards greens, brocolli, etc. You can find a list if you Google "veggies high in calcium". Also, give your piggie lots of cucumber and watermelon. Cucumber is the king of vegetables concerning good nutrients and hydration. Watermelon is also beneficial and a good hydrator. Guinea pigs can eat watermelon seeds (one of the few kinds of seed that they can safely eat). Wash the rind and cut into little pieces. Some like the rind, some like the fruit, and some like both

In closing, I hope your guiena pig feels better soon. Be sure to read about Cartrophen because it can be given long term with good resuilts!

 

[Lucy2103]

When you say a flare is your pig having blood? And after taking it does this go away? Which glucosamine are you giving?

 

[Lucy2103]

I don't use the cystease. Dignified Sir George has the johnsons 4 joints dog strength liquid, 0.4 mls. He begs for it every

As wiebke mentioned in her first reply, sterile cystitis is a possibility if the symptoms keep returning. IC is characterised by the symptoms of a bacterial UTI but there is little bacteria actually present. Antibiotics may suppress the symptoms and a piggy can appear to get better but it won’t cure it as there is little bacterial load to cure. This is why testing the urine is important. Little bacterial load with UTI symptoms would suggest IC.
Piggies with IC will get repeated flares but not all piggies will display intense pain during the flares.

IC can be managed with glucosamine to coat the bladder and pain relief when needed.
All other urinary issues including sludge, stones and a bacterial infection need to be ruled out before sterile cystitis can be the diagnosis though.

Is cystease the same treatment as glucosamine? What would you reccomend please. My vet is going to prescribe metacam and said I am fine to give cystease

 

[Piggies&buns]

Yes cystease is glucosamine.

A flare is any increase in symptoms. It may or may not be blood. Porphyrine is intensely coloured pees which can present with IC, it may be pain.
Glucosamine isn’t an instant fix and will take a few weeks to build up.
Your piggy will take a maintenance dose each day (often 1 capsule dissolved into 2ml of water) but you then increase the dosage (up to 2 capsules a day) if you notice an increase in symptoms and decrease it back down to maintenance dose once the flare is over.
Pain medication is also given.

You do need to be certain that it isn’t stones, sludge or a bacterial UTI first and before IC can be diagnosed.

IC can be triggered by stress and change in diet can also cause so try to keep things the same and don’t introduce new items - stick with the safe daily four of lettuce, cucumber, pepper and coriander.

 

[MMasters]

If the guinea pig has blood, the standard treatment is doxycycline AND enrofloxacin. Not all bladder infections can be detected with a urine test. A kidney infection requires a blood test.

Blood in the urine is a sign of infection and if there isn't a detectable amount of bacteria, there will be because any sores or abraisions in the bladder, kidney, or urethra will become infected.

At this point, antibiotics are indicated. Your vet should do an ultrasound to look for lumps in the abdomen or solid particles in the bladder. If nothing shows up, the next step is an x-ray. Most vets don't have 3-D imaging. For that, you probably have to go to the nearest university that has a veterinary school, because there will be a small animal clinic. 3-D imaging is not anywhere near the price of an MRI.

If nothing shows up, then give your guinea pig ivormec. It is given orally. Why? Because blood in the urine can be a sign of internal parasites. Although weight lost and a scruffy fur coat are common symptoms, not all internal parasites will cause a guinea pig to exhibit those symptoms.

Internal parasites can be very difficult to diagnose because not all of them will show up in a fecal sample or other tests. If she doesn't have internal parasites, the ivomec won't harm her. The treatment is 3 doses, each one given at 3 week intervals.

In the meantime, read about Cartophen (it's usually given by injection) and make her some barely water!

 

[Wiebke]

Hello, the blood cleared up after 2 weeks of antibiotics so we presumed it was an infection. She's been fine for about 6 weeks and now we've noticed more blood again, she's been on baytril again 0.4 daily. She'll have been on it for 2 weeks on Saturday but still noticed blood today. The vet that's been treating her is phoning me tomorrow. With the information that it cleared up last time for about 6 weeks but there is blood again, what would your thoughts be? We gave metacam last time with the baytril but only baytril this time. Do you think that's why we are still finding blood? What would your thoughts be knowing the history etc. Again, absolutely no indication of pain. No pain noises at all or anything. Whereas when she was 12 weeks old and came to us with a uti, she was wincing and clearly in pain. Thank you!

Hi

If the second round of antibiotics isn't effective and symptoms come back, then the next step is to test the urine for both blood and a bacterial count. A bacterial urine infection is rather rare in indoors piggies; most common is now a sterile cystitis, which is characterised by the presence of blood and the usual symptoms but a low count of bacteria (no bacteria at all is very rare due to scent marking). This is the next logical step once the antibiotic approach is not working.

Throwing more strong antibiotics at it will only totally kill the appetite (especially the combo of doxy and baytril) but it won't do anything for a non-bacterial/sterile cystitis, which affects mainly the natural insulating glucosamine coat of the walls of the urinary tract that prevents the highly corrosive urine from coming into direct contact with raw tissue.

Parasites in well kept indoors guinea pigs are very rare and should only be considered if the blood is coming from the digestive and not the urinary tract.

PS: Can I please ask @MMasters to comply with the way we run our most sensitive sections on this forum. This will be my last reminder to you after plenty on previous occasion before action will be taken.
This forum is not about showing off your own knowledge (whether appropriate or not) but about putting the physical and emotional wellbeing of both the piggy and their owner at the centre of our recommendations.
Our Forum Staff and Forum Quirks Explained

 

[Lucy2103]

I spoke to my vet and he prescribed metacam as this worked last time. After just 2 doses of metacam there has been no blood... what would this indicate?

After two weeks of baytril last time there was no presence at all of blood, protein, anything bad etc. I have done the 2 weeks of baytril again this time so I would presume it's had the same affect on any infections? However we still had the blood a few days ago with not using metacam. After 2 days of metacam there has been no blood. I did buy the cystease but haven't used yet. And again I must reiterate, absolutely no pain noises or any symptoms of illness, I know they hide illness but she's very happy, zooming around, popcorning. She isn't a quiet pig where she appears she could be hiding pain. When she was 12 weeks old and came to us with a urine infection she was making terrible pain noises when she urinated. They were 3 years old in June. Would you recommend I start her on the cystease while using the metacam? Let the cystease get into her system before I stop the metacam? I feel like it's worth trying this method. I can see on the box it say 1 capsule up to 3k of weight but I know this is for cats so what dosage would you recommend? I'll add that they are house piggies, so certainly wouldn't be exposed to parasites as another mentioned. They have a c&c cage with reccomended size for 2 females also.
Thank you!

 

[Wiebke]

I spoke to my vet and he prescribed metacam as this worked last time. After just 2 doses of metacam there has been no blood... what would this indicate?

After two weeks of baytril last time there was no presence at all of blood, protein, anything bad etc. I have done the 2 weeks of baytril again this time so I would presume it's had the same affect on any infections? However we still had the blood a few days ago with not using metacam. After 2 days of metacam there has been no blood. I did buy the cystease but haven't used yet. And again I must reiterate, absolutely no pain noises or any symptoms of illness, I know they hide illness but she's very happy, zooming around, popcorning. She isn't a quiet pig where she appears she could be hiding pain. When she was 12 weeks old and came to us with a urine infection she was making terrible pain noises when she urinated. They were 3 years old in June. Would you recommend I start her on the cystease while using the metacam? Let the cystease get into her system before I stop the metacam? I feel like it's worth trying this method. I can see on the box it say 1 capsule up to 3k of weight but I know this is for cats so what dosage would you recommend? I'll add that they are house piggies, so certainly wouldn't be exposed to parasites as another mentioned. They have a c&c cage with reccomended size for 2 females also.
Thank you!

Hi

You could be dealing with a milder sterile cystitis so I would recommend to start on the cystease because it needs time to build up; a few weeks rather than a few days.

But the glucosamine is in my own experience more crucial in the management of sterile IC although the metacam with its anti-inflammatory qualities is also needed. Sterile cystitis runs the whole spectrum from the very mild to the very severe so you will have to find your own level of cystease and metacam to get on top of any flares quickly and how low you can go in the interim. once you have got it under control.

All the best.

 

[Lucy2103]

Thank you so much! How many capsules would you recommend of the cystease? What is the cause of this is sterile cystitis? Is it more of a genetic thing rather than bacterial? Will she constantly need metacam if it is this or should the cystease daily keep it at bay?
Thank you

 

[Wiebke]

Thank you so much! How many capsules would you recommend of the cystease? What is the cause of this is sterile cystitis? Is it more of a genetic thing rather than bacterial? Will she constantly need metacam if it is this or should the cystease daily keep it at bay?
Thank you

Hi

You can try 1 capsule of cystease every 12 hours in a last ditch attempt to get it under control or least shortly up it during a flare to that strength.

Sterile cystitis typically affects guinea pigs with high stress as their default setting. They experience those conditions while still in the womb as their mother's normal setting; not all babies are affected, not even in a litter. Like with cats, who struggle with a very similar condition (feline sterile cystitis or FSC), it is the consequence of mass supply breeding for chain pet shops or by for sale breeders or from neglect situations where it can be passed around between piggies.
Sterile cystitis has now overtaken a bacterial urine infection (UTI) as the most common urinary tract infection. The mosre severe forms are unfortunately untreatable and can in the most extreme cases kill within a matter of days.

In my own experience, other piggies with a normal stress setting are able to fend it off with their immune system without ever developing acute symptoms - the same as with a bacterial respiratory infection (URI).

But there is basically nothing you can do about it. It is not your fault at all and there is no prevention until animal welfare is taken a lot more seriously on all levels. It is down to how pets have been increasingly commercially produced down to a minimal standard over the last ca. 20 years.

 

[Lucy2103]

So we've been giving one capsule of cystease every evening with 2kg dose of metacam. Missed one dose of metacam yesterday to see how she would be and blood today already! Can GPs be on metacam permanently? Was really hoping the cystease on its own would be ok. Do you think it hasn't been long enough? You mentioned giving 2 capsules but the box says 1 daily up to 3kg weight.. would 2 capsules a day (one every 12 hours) be too much? Look forward to hearing back with your thoughts on it all. Thank you

 

[Wiebke]

So we've been giving one capsule of cystease every evening with 2kg dose of metacam. Missed one dose of metacam yesterday to see how she would be and blood today already! Can GPs be on metacam permanently? Was really hoping the cystease on its own would be ok. Do you think it hasn't been long enough? You mentioned giving 2 capsules but the box says 1 daily up to 3kg weight.. would 2 capsules a day (one every 12 hours) be too much? Look forward to hearing back with your thoughts on it all. Thank you

Hi

Piggies can be on metacam long term. Please do not experiment; the cystease will take a few weeks to kick in fully and so will getting the IC under control. Only then can you start with experimenting how low a daily maintenance dose is needed to keep symptom free and how high you have to up short term to cap a flare within 2-3 days.

But you need to take the first hurdle first: allowing both the metacam and glucosamine to build up in the body until symptoms are under control before you can tackle the next hurdle.

 

[Lucy2103]

Ok thank you. The vet didn't give any instruction this time just to take until it stops but we didn't see blood for a while so stopped just for one day as we were given a large bottle and didn't know if it was safe to continue. Good to hear long term use is safe. Will 1 capsule of cystease be substantial? No blood currently with the use of metacam.

Thank you

 

[Wiebke]

Ok thank you. The vet didn't give any instruction this time just to take until it stops but we didn't see blood for a while so stopped just for one day as we were given a large bottle and didn't know if it was safe to continue. Good to hear long term use is safe. Will 1 capsule of cystease be substantial? No blood currently with the use of metacam.

Thank you

Metacam can be safely given at much higher dosages for years on end. Please don't stop.

1 capsule of cystease seems to be the average dosage and it can be given safely all life long if needed.