Bladder Sludge support

[ariro007]

Hello everyone!

I’ve been reading posts on here for years but finally decided after so much trial and error to ask for help. I want to add that I am in the US so that may impact some things.

I’ve been a guinea pig mom for many years. My one boy just passed last Friday from a second bladder stone forming and causing a partial obstruction. I have been very traumatized by bladder stones. I have 3 remaining lovely old piggies now. They are all around 6 years old. However, the past few months I have been at the vet constantly for them. My one girl, Blake, has been struggling with constant bladder sludge. I noticed yesterday an increase in calcium in my other girl’s (Freya) cage now too!

They have been on a very strict veggie diet. Blake (girl) has inflammation in her GI and bladder so I am doing my best to make her comfy. Loki had strange stinky poops so his veggie intake got limited and bounced back, they are still stinky but much more consistent. Freya my other girl had two surgeries late last year and was doing great until recently (noticed a lot more calcium deposits). I’m glad they’re peeing it out but is more of a tan color which worries me.

This is their current diet:
Mix of timothy and orchard hay (piles 24/7 access)
Oxbow pellets - maybe a tablespoon a day
I have slowly re introduced veggies since they all had odd shaped poo (recommended by vet to do so) so now we are back to ~1 piece of romaine which I cut up and have them forage through their hay for
Filtered water (double filtered actually) in water bottles, I just bought bowls to see if that will help
Oxbow vitamin c treat
Oxbow joint supplement
Sherwood urinary tract supplement (trying this)
Occasionally oxbow digestive supplement

Blakey has also been on critical care 3x a day to help her because she struggles to maintain her weight even though she is otherwise “healthy”. They did say she most likely has Interstitial cystitis.

Freya and Loki both get some critical care now too since the upset stomach incident.
I include benebac probiotics in their evening feedings of critical care.

I hope this isn’t too scattered. I’d appreciate any advice on this on handling bladder sludge/ cystitis. I have also tried to increase their floor time to keep them moving! I have spoken to so many vets about this and have been at the specialist almost every month. The girls have appointments tomorrow! Blake is getting hormone injections for small ovarian cysts and Freya is getting laser therapy for her arthritis. I apologize for how long this is, I wanted to give background for everything!
Thank you all
Ariana

 

[Wiebke]

Hello everyone!

I’ve been reading posts on here for years but finally decided after so much trial and error to ask for help. I want to add that I am in the US so that may impact some things.

I’ve been a guinea pig mom for many years. My one boy just passed last Friday from a second bladder stone forming and causing a partial obstruction. I have been very traumatized by bladder stones. I have 3 remaining lovely old piggies now. They are all around 6 years old. However, the past few months I have been at the vet constantly for them. My one girl, Blake, has been struggling with constant bladder sludge. I noticed yesterday an increase in calcium in my other girl’s (Freya) cage now too!

They have been on a very strict veggie diet. Blake (girl) has inflammation in her GI and bladder so I am doing my best to make her comfy. Loki had strange stinky poops so his veggie intake got limited and bounced back, they are still stinky but much more consistent. Freya my other girl had two surgeries late last year and was doing great until recently (noticed a lot more calcium deposits). I’m glad they’re peeing it out but is more of a tan color which worries me.

This is their current diet:
Mix of timothy and orchard hay (piles 24/7 access)
Oxbow pellets - maybe a tablespoon a day
I have slowly re introduced veggies since they all had odd shaped poo (recommended by vet to do so) so now we are back to ~1 piece of romaine which I cut up and have them forage through their hay for
Filtered water (double filtered actually) in water bottles, I just bought bowls to see if that will help
Oxbow vitamin c treat
Oxbow joint supplement
Sherwood urinary tract supplement (trying this)
Occasionally oxbow digestive supplement

Blakey has also been on critical care 3x a day to help her because she struggles to maintain her weight even though she is otherwise “healthy”. They did say she most likely has Interstitial cystitis.

Freya and Loki both get some critical care now too since the upset stomach incident.
I include benebac probiotics in their evening feedings of critical care.

I hope this isn’t too scattered. I’d appreciate any advice on this on handling bladder sludge/ cystitis. I have also tried to increase their floor time to keep them moving! I have spoken to so many vets about this and have been at the specialist almost every month. The girls have appointments tomorrow! Blake is getting hormone injections for small ovarian cysts and Freya is getting laser therapy for her arthritis. I apologize for how long this is, I wanted to give background for everything!
Thank you all
Ariana

Hi and welcome

If you have an increase of bladder sludge, stone and calcium pees issues in more than one piggy, then it is highly likely that your dietary balance is out of kilter rather than an individual problem with the complex calcium absorption. There is a soft spot in the diet but just a little out either way (too much calcium as well as too little calcium) and it can quickly lead to stones or sludge. You diet frankly sounds like you have gone rather too low in calcium. Only lettuce as veg means that your piggies are getting hardly any nutrients from fresh food.

The problem is that there is not one single ideal diet that works everywhere and for everybody because firstly, the water hardness and mineral content differs locally. It also depends on how many pellets you feed (they are the two food groups where most of the calcium comes into the diet, especially in mainly hard water countries like the UK whereas the USA is mainly a soft water country, which can lead to problems if you transfer recommendations directly, as I know from my own dietary experiences when I ended up with a spate of bladder stones back in 2012).

There is a balance between calcium, phosphates and nitrates. Wild foraging guinea pigs will actually select what additional plants they supplement their mainly grass based diet with in order to keep that balance and they will eat different ones to regain that balance if necessary, as more recent research has shown.

 

[ariro007]

Hi and welcome

If you have an increase of bladder sludge, stone and calcium pees issues in more than one piggy, then it is highly likely that your dietary balance is out of kilter rather than an individual problem with the complex calcium absorption. There is a soft spot in the diet but just a little out either way (too much calcium as well as too little calcium) and it can quickly lead to stones or sludge. You diet frankly sounds like you have gone rather too low in calcium. Only lettuce as veg means that your piggies are getting hardly any nutrients from fresh food.

The problem is that there is not one single ideal diet that works everywhere and for everybody because firstly, the water hardness and mineral content differs locally. It also depends on how many pellets you feed (they are the two food groups where most of the calcium comes into the diet, especially in mainly hard water countries like the UK whereas the USA is mainly a soft water country, which can lead to problems if you transfer recommendations directly, as I know from my own dietary experiences when I ended up with a spate of bladder stones back in 2012).

There is a balance between calcium, phosphates and nitrates. Wild foraging guinea pigs will actually select what additional plants they supplement their mainly grass based diet with in order to keep that balance and they will eat different ones to regain that balance if necessary, as more recent research has shown.

Thank you for the info! Where I live the water is also quite hard and strangely salty lately. My vet(s) were okay with just the romaine for now because of the GI issues. However since Loki and Freya seem to be doing better hopefully I can incorporate more veggies into the mix again. For some reason after her colitis and cystitis issues Blake only tolerates romaine. Red and green leaf lettuce don’t work for her and neither does green pepper which is frustrating.

I should mention that Blake and Thor were siblings (I’m 99.9999% sure) and I know for a fact Loki and Freya are siblings. So genetics may play a small role. Thank you again I hope I can get this balance right.

 

[Wiebke]

Thank you for the info! Where I live the water is also quite hard and strangely salty lately. My vet(s) were okay with just the romaine for now because of the GI issues. However since Loki and Freya seem to be doing better hopefully I can incorporate more veggies into the mix again. For some reason after her colitis and cystitis issues Blake only tolerates romaine. Red and green leaf lettuce don’t work for her and neither does green pepper which is frustrating.

I should mention that Blake and Thor were siblings (I’m 99.9999% sure) and I know for a fact Loki and Freya are siblings. So genetics may play a small role. Thank you again I hope I can get this balance right.

Thank you for clarifying.

Please try a sprig of cilantro/coriander herb or an occasional other herb and an 1 inch strip of collard greens once a week, or even a little kale instead - they contain vital trace elements and minerals (like vital magnesium for instance, which is tied in with leafy high calcium/high vitamin C veg) that are not in reinforced processed foods and reduce the amount of pellets you feed instead.

Introduce any new foods in very small amounts with your usual foods and try to gradually build the newbie quantity up over the course of a week or two, so you do not hit an unprepared gut microbiome with too large a quantity of new foods. This will allow the specialist digestive bacteria to multiply at pace. That is often the reason why piggies on a limited diet struggle with new foods or food changes. The digestive system can react very sensitively, especially when it has has been badly disturbed in the past.
Lettuce in itself is nutritionally rather low value but you could try to sprinkle it with just a little dried herb instead to see how that goes initially. If it doesn't work, you can use the rest for your own cooking...

Check that any pellets/processed supplements are ideally fairly balanced around the ideal 1:5:1 or 1:6:1 phosphorus:calcium:nitrates ratio. Here in the UK we have found that cutting back on pellets, especially higher calcium ones gives you a lot more freedom with fresh foods and forage. Weight for weight, there is more calcium in pellets than in kale - the veg highest in calcium but also packed with other nutrients...
I think that our recently updated pellet guide may include some US/Canadian brands?
Nugget Comparison Chart

Any diet is always a big compromise but it has to work for you. You have obviously already cut out the water, which is good, as it doesn't sound like something you want to feed. How long ago have you switched to bottled water and how low calcium/mineral is it? Most owners overlook water as a major source of calcium and can stumble over how a change to low calcium bottled water can impact on the overall calcium ratio; especially as the individual amount that piggies drink can also vary enormously...

Apart from a diet just being out of the soft spot or grossly overladen with calcium it generally takes several contributing factors out of our own control for the formation of stones, like a genetic disposition, not being a big drinker and therefore not flushing the bladder well (and there is nothing you can do to make them drink more nor should you do - over-hydration can kill more surely than dehydration) or something in the complex calcium absorption process suddenly going awry.
All we have as owners is the diet, which is a rather crude, cumbersome and slow instrument since it usually takes several weeks for any changes to percolate through the body...

I hope that I have been able to give you a few new avenues to pursue? I can of course not say what will work in your specific situation but I hope that that you will find the points I have made worth considering or discussing with your vet if you think that would reassure you. Nutrition is such a complex field - knock one thing and it impacts on lots of others...

 

[ariro007]

Thank you for clarifying.

Please try a sprig of cilantro/coriander herb or an occasional other herb and an 1 inch strip of collard greens once a week, or even a little kale instead - they contain vital trace elements and minerals (like vital magnesium for instance, which is tied in with leafy high calcium/high vitamin C veg) that are not in reinforced processed foods and reduce the amount of pellets you feed instead.

Introduce any new foods in very small amounts with your usual foods and try to gradually build the newbie quantity up over the course of a week or two, so you do not hit an unprepared gut microbiome with too large a quantity of new foods. This will allow the specialist digestive bacteria to multiply at pace. That is often the reason why piggies on a limited diet struggle with new foods or food changes. The digestive system can react very sensitively, especially when it has has been badly disturbed in the past.
Lettuce in itself is nutritionally rather low value but you could try to sprinkle it with just a little dried herb instead to see how that goes initially. If it doesn't work, you can use the rest for your own cooking...

Check that any pellets/processed supplements are ideally fairly balanced around the ideal 1:5:1 or 1:6:1 phosphorus:calcium:nitrates ratio. Here in the UK we have found that cutting back on pellets, especially higher calcium ones gives you a lot more freedom with fresh foods and forage. Weight for weight, there is more calcium in pellets than in kale - the veg highest in calcium but also packed with other nutrients...
I think that our recently updated pellet guide may include some US/Canadian brands?
Nugget Comparison Chart

Any diet is always a big compromise but it has to work for you. You have obviously already cut out the water, which is good, as it doesn't sound like something you want to feed. How long ago have you switched to bottled water and how low calcium/mineral is it? Most owners overlook water as a major source of calcium and can stumble over how a change to low calcium bottled water can impact on the overall calcium ratio; especially as the individual amount that piggies drink can also vary enormously...

Apart from a diet just being out of the soft spot or grossly overladen with calcium it generally takes several contributing factors out of our own control for the formation of stones, like a genetic disposition, not being a big drinker and therefore not flushing the bladder well (and there is nothing you can do to make them drink more nor should you do - over-hydration can kill more surely than dehydration) or something in the complex calcium absorption process suddenly going awry.
All we have as owners is the diet, which is a rather crude, cumbersome and slow instrument since it usually takes several weeks for any changes to percolate through the body...

I hope that I have been able to give you a few new avenues to pursue? I can of course not say what will work in your specific situation but I hope that that you will find the points I have made worth considering or discussing with your vet if you think that would reassure you. Nutrition is such a complex field - knock one thing and it impacts on lots of others...

Thank you so much! This was beyond helpful! Last night I started trying to determine the best course for food for them. I added a little green pepper back into the diet. Freya and Loki were so happy. I noticed though Blake, while pooping fine now, definitely struggled overnight. So green bell pepper might need to be re introduced very very slowly for her. My bf went grocery shopping for me this morning and I gave him a list of what we need.

I use Oxbow pellets which are generally the best on the market here. I did look at the ingredients and they’re not horrible. Right now I’m aiming a tablespoon a day for them. They used to get A LOT more like free range of pellets when they were younger before I knew all of this.

For slowly re introducing Veg especially for Blake, a small amount a day or once a week? Once two weeks? I’m sorry if you mentioned it and I didn’t read it properly.

They have always gotten filtered water! I never trusted the tap in my state and the old buildings I lived in. I briefly switched to bottled water last month, realized it was spring water and bought new filters for the tap water. At the start of February our water where I lived started to taste really salty even with filters so that is when i switched to bottled from my usual filtered tap water. They didn’t really like the bottled water as much. Now that I have the double filter type system (I use a brita filter and then take water from brita into a zerowater filter). The water from zerowater filter tastes so crisp they love it. I also love it because I don’t have to buy bottled water on top of filters. The brita worked fine until the water got super salty and then it barely did anything. I’d love to have a reverse osmosis filter for them but I don’t have that kind of money, especially after 3 surgeries! Blake, Freya and Loki are all pretty good at drinking water! Freya likes to drink when she is eating her pellets. Loki and Blake both take a bite of hay then water. I must say though, Blake drinks water very very silly. Sometimes she drinks upside down, she’s been like that since she was a baby pig lol.

 

[Wiebke]

Thank you so much! This was beyond helpful! Last night I started trying to determine the best course for food for them. I added a little green pepper back into the diet. Freya and Loki were so happy. I noticed though Blake, while pooping fine now, definitely struggled overnight. So green bell pepper might need to be re introduced very very slowly for her. My bf went grocery shopping for me this morning and I gave him a list of what we need.

I use Oxbow pellets which are generally the best on the market here. I did look at the ingredients and they’re not horrible. Right now I’m aiming a tablespoon a day for them. They used to get A LOT more like free range of pellets when they were younger before I knew all of this.

For slowly re introducing Veg especially for Blake, a small amount a day or once a week? Once two weeks? I’m sorry if you mentioned it and I didn’t read it properly.

They have always gotten filtered water! I never trusted the tap in my state and the old buildings I lived in. I briefly switched to bottled water last month, realized it was spring water and bought new filters for the tap water. At the start of February our water where I lived started to taste really salty even with filters so that is when i switched to bottled from my usual filtered tap water. They didn’t really like the bottled water as much. Now that I have the double filter type system (I use a brita filter and then take water from brita into a zerowater filter). The water from zerowater filter tastes so crisp they love it. I also love it because I don’t have to buy bottled water on top of filters. The brita worked fine until the water got super salty and then it barely did anything. I’d love to have a reverse osmosis filter for them but I don’t have that kind of money, especially after 3 surgeries! Blake, Freya and Loki are all pretty good at drinking water! Freya likes to drink when she is eating her pellets. Loki and Blake both take a bite of hay then water. I must say though, Blake drinks water very very silly. Sometimes she drinks upside down, she’s been like that since she was a baby pig lol.

You need to do it daily in order to stimulate the growth of the specialist bacteria but start with a tiny amount and then feed a little more with each passing day until you have reached the intended portion size. You can take bigger steps from about half the ultimate size onwards or leave a day out. It's just giving the gut time to adapt, which will hopefully help to avoid any mishaps.

Wishing you all the best. All you can do is try as cautiously as possible and work out what is suitable for you.

Here is our very comprehensive diet guide, which looks at diet as a whole and at food group in detail.
You may find it helpful: Long term balanced general and special needs guinea pig diets

 

[Mikatelyn]

I've had bladder stone piggies as well. My vet told me to just use distilled water. She said they get plenty of electrolytes in their pellets and other food.
The Brita in the US doesn't appear to filter out any calcium. So only calcium free bottled water for my piggies! Much cheaper than a bladder surgery.
I also give them the oxbow urinary support tablets. 1 vet said go ahead and do that, but another vet recently told me it doesn't help.
Hope this helps