Biting / humping / boars

[Jemima]

Hello!

So I haven't seen any of this happen at all - no biting or humping! But, I found a few little sores on the submissive piggies back/rump area. The vet says one of them is a tooth mark - i.e., a bite. And the other little dried up ones (which have healed) are possibly nips. And thinks it must be some male humping from the dominant boar.

Pip (submissive) doesn't love Pap - mostly he'll run away from him, but sometimes they'll happily share a pile of veggies or grass, etc. Though never are they in the same hide etc.

The only thing I've heard is one or two loud shrieks from Pip over the last month, I've gone in and seen him looking a little ruffled. He will very quickly run away from Pap! But honestly, I see no fighting - and I work with them in the same room with me, and 99% of the time they are quietly munching on hay, separate from each other, but seem content.

So - is this a sign of a dysfunctional bond? Or is it OK and relatively normal dominance behaviour? Pip is probably around 12 months and Pap maybe 18 months, not sure. They came from a large hoard of piggies all kept together in an Avery, and were bonded at the rescue. I've had them for coming up to three months.

 

[Claire W]

I’m afraid to say that it sounds like a dysfunctional bond If mites and fungal infections have been ruled out on the boar with the bite marks (sometimes they can bite themselves if they have mites due to the discomfort) it may be best to separate your boys but have them living next door to each other so they can still communicate either in separate cages or via a divider.

We generally say that once blood has been drawn, that it’s a failed bond

 

[Jemima]

I’m afraid to say that it sounds like a dysfunctional bond If mites and fungal infections have been ruled out on the boar with the bite marks (sometimes they can bite themselves if they have mites due to the discomfort) it may be best to separate your boys but have them living next door to each other so they can still communicate either in separate cages or via a divider.

We generally say that once blood has been drawn, that it’s a failed bond

I've contacted the rescue to see what they say. Unfortunately, I do not have the space to keep them separately. If it really is a failed bond, then I would have to give one back to the rescue and try bonding with another. Agh, really don't want to do that. Picture of what they think is a bite attached.

 

[Wiebke]

Hello!

So I haven't seen any of this happen at all - no biting or humping! But, I found a few little sores on the submissive piggies back/rump area. The vet says one of them is a tooth mark - i.e., a bite. And the other little dried up ones (which have healed) are possibly nips. And thinks it must be some male humping from the dominant boar.

Pip (submissive) doesn't love Pap - mostly he'll run away from him, but sometimes they'll happily share a pile of veggies or grass, etc. Though never are they in the same hide etc.

The only thing I've heard is one or two loud shrieks from Pip over the last month, I've gone in and seen him looking a little ruffled. He will very quickly run away from Pap! But honestly, I see no fighting - and I work with them in the same room with me, and 99% of the time they are quietly munching on hay, separate from each other, but seem content.

So - is this a sign of a dysfunctional bond? Or is it OK and relatively normal dominance behaviour? Pip is probably around 12 months and Pap maybe 18 months, not sure. They came from a large hoard of piggies all kept together in an Avery, and were bonded at the rescue. I've had them for coming up to three months.

Hi!

Please do a little trial separation with subsequent re-intro on neutral ground. This is the best way of evaluating a potentially dysfunctional bond and getting as close to being able to an honest opinion, especially from a potentially bullied party. A bullied piggy in a dysfunctional bond will noticeably perk up once away from the bully; if that is the case, then please keep them as next door neighbours or find another solution.
In the case of fighting boars, a dysfunctional bond will show up quickly during the re-intro, which should NEVER happen in the cage. If there is some real aggro between them, it will manifest very quickly.

Keep in mind that young adults can still experience strong short hormone spikes. Rescued piggies from bad backgrounds can have social deficits that are not necessarily immediately obvious. The line between being the submissive and the bullied companion to a dominant boar is often quite a thin one and not quite easy to establish. The method described above is the most effective one to the get to bottom of it all.

Please follow the advice and information in this link here: Bonds In Trouble

 

[Jemima]

Hi!

Please do a little trial separation with subsequent re-intro on neutral ground. This is the best way of evaluating a potentially dysfunctional bond and getting as close to being able to an honest opinion, especially from a potentially bullied party. A bullied piggy in a dysfunctional bond will noticeably perk up once away from the bully; if that is the case, then please keep them as next door neighbours or find another solution.
In the case of fighting boars, a dysfunctional bond will show up quickly during the re-intro, which should NEVER happen in the cage. If there is some real aggro between them, it will manifest very quickly.

Keep in mind that young adults can still experience strong short hormone spikes. Rescued piggies from bad backgrounds can have social deficits that are not necessarily immediately obvious. The line between being the submissive and the bullied companion to a dominant boar is often quite a thin one and not quite easy to establish. The method described above is the most effective one to the get to bottom of it all.

Please follow the advice and information in this link here: Bonds In Trouble

OK, thank you. I will check - hopefully that'll tell me how long to separate and how to separate - i.e., a makeshift divider in their cage? But it is only a 4x2.

I just took Pippy out to his run. He is happy and eating grass etc, without Papua. Then I took Pap out and he hasn't moved from his hide as he doesn't know Pip is up the other end of the run! Pip will also very happily be carried away and eat sitting on me or my children - without Pap. Papua needs to be able to see Pip in order to do this, or he freezes.

I'll check out the details you linked.

 

[Jemima]

Hi!

Please do a little trial separation with subsequent re-intro on neutral ground. This is the best way of evaluating a potentially dysfunctional bond and getting as close to being able to an honest opinion, especially from a potentially bullied party. A bullied piggy in a dysfunctional bond will noticeably perk up once away from the bully; if that is the case, then please keep them as next door neighbours or find another solution.
In the case of fighting boars, a dysfunctional bond will show up quickly during the re-intro, which should NEVER happen in the cage. If there is some real aggro between them, it will manifest very quickly.

Keep in mind that young adults can still experience strong short hormone spikes. Rescued piggies from bad backgrounds can have social deficits that are not necessarily immediately obvious. The line between being the submissive and the bullied companion to a dominant boar is often quite a thin one and not quite easy to establish. The method described above is the most effective one to the get to bottom of it all.

Please follow the advice and information in this link here: Bonds In Trouble

Also it's hard to tell because the dominant pig doesn't chase the submissive pig around all the time, I only see it occasionally. He does let him eat, sleep, rest etc. It is only the fact that the submissive doesn't want to be near the dominant, and of course, the little marks I have found on his rump...

 

[Wiebke]

Also it's hard to tell because the dominant pig doesn't chase the submissive pig around all the time, I only see it occasionally. He does let him eat, sleep, rest etc. It is only the fact that the submissive doesn't want to be near the dominant, and of course, the little marks I have found on his rump...

PLEASE read the information in my last post. It is a guide for how to figure out whether your boys still want to be together or not without you having to fret and second guess yourself all the time.

We do not have access to your piggies and can only judge by your words, which are already coloured and filtered by your own perception. This basically means we have to try and second-guess based on your guesses.

The method described in my last post allows you to ask your two boys directly for their own honest opinion without any guessing and second-guessing.

 

[Free Ranger]

I think someone will tell you shortly that 4 x 2 is probably too small for a boar pair and that it will make a difference if they have a bit more room... but they might still fall out anyway...

When I was suspicious about my piggy politics I used my tablet to video them interacting when I wasn't there, then watched the replay. When I was in the kitchen everyone was eyeballing me but when I went out they went back to eyeballing each other!

 

[Jemima]

I think someone will tell you shortly that 4 x 2 is probably too small for a boar pair and that it will make a difference if they have a bit more room... but they might still fall out anyway...

When I was suspicious about my piggy politics I used my tablet to video them interacting when I wasn't there, then watched the replay. When I was in the kitchen everyone was eyeballing me but when I went out they went back to eyeballing each other!

Hiya. Yes, I do suspect they need more room. I would have preferred two females because of the space I have for them. They are currently in their massive run outside and happily nibbling separately. In the winter I was planning to extend to a 5x2 but that's really the absolute limit in my tiny office! Thing is, I think if we extended, they would still be the same - and as I have said, never do I see any bullying, but I have a sneaky feeling, and I have all along, that Pip just doesn't like Papua.

I'll look into the separation - no idea where I will buy a see through one though! I just only want to do it if completely necessary.

 

[Jemima]

Just checked on them and they are both lying down in the loft, looking really chilled. I'm going to give it a week, check Pip over regularly for any new wounds and then reassess. Thanks for your advice, it will come in handy if and when it comes to trialling a separation.

 

[Siikibam]

The other thing to think about in terms of their bond is that not sharing hides or eating next to each other isn’t necessarily a sign that they don’t like each other. My boys have never shared a hide, even when young. But they like each other. Although I sometimes think Toffee (top pig) would be more lost without Fudge than the other way round.

Having said all that, a trial separation is a good way to find out if their bond is functional or not. Hopefully they’ll settle down and it would have been a hormone spike or spring air.

 

[Jemima]

The other thing to think about in terms of their bond is that not sharing hides or eating next to each other isn’t necessarily a sign that they don’t like each other. My boys have never shared a hide, even when young. But they like each other. Although I sometimes think Toffee (top pig) would be more lost without Fudge than the other way round.

Having said all that, a trial separation is a good way to find out if their bond is functional or not. Hopefully they’ll settle down and it would have been a hormone spike or spring air.

The rescue said not to trial a separation, but that they think it sounds like the bites mean that it's likely they will need to be rebounded, which I feel really sad about. Because I love them both and don't want to think of them being unsettled and having to do it all over again with another boar etc. It's just sad and it's not the way I wanted this to work out. I just feel like it's so strange that I honestly have never once seen a nip or a bit or a mount or anything.

 

[Piggies&buns]

I would honestly do a trial separation - it enables you to gauge the piggies opinion on their relationship. If they had had full on fight then it gives you the answer without having to do a trial, but things between them don’t seem clear cut, so id definitely do the trial.
Bite marks are not good but if you do the trial, they can make up their own mind - the reintroduction after trial will give you their answer.

 

[Jemima]

I would honestly do a trial separation - it enables you to gauge the piggies opinion on their relationship. If they had had full on fight then it gives you the answer without having to do a trial, but things between them don’t seem clear cut, so id definitely do the trial.
Bite marks are not good but if you do the trial, they can make up their own mind - the reintroduction after trial will give you their answer.

OK, I just have one last question. Does a trial separation mean they have to establish hiecharcy all over again?

 

[Tigermoth]

The rescue said not to trial a separation, but that they think it sounds like the bites mean that it's likely they will need to be rebounded, which I feel really sad about. Because I love them both and don't want to think of them being unsettled and having to do it all over again with another boar etc. It's just sad and it's not the way I wanted this to work out. I just feel like it's so strange that I honestly have never once seen a nip or a bit or a mount or anything.

Honestly, you have access to one of the foremost experts in Piggy Politics in Weibke. If she says try it, try it.

 

[Jemima]

Honestly, you have access to one of the foremost experts in Piggy Politics in Weibke. If she says try it, try it.

OK, I will! It's just contradicting the rescue advice - they are a specific guinea rescue, one of the best in the UK, I'd say.

 

[Free Ranger]

I wonder whether you have space for an L-shape or triangle corner cage..? At one point I had 2 interlocking L-shapes (don't ask!)

 

[Jemima]

I wonder whether you have space for an L-shape or triangle corner cage..? At one point I had 2 interlocking L-shapes (don't ask!)

I don't think so, unfortunately. I do think I can secretly squeeze in another grid though, and perhaps make the L-shape top floor standard as I don't like the corner thing with Pip getting, well, cornered by Papua. I do think they need more room.

I'm going to give them another week and check Pip over for bites regularly. He hasn't had any more yet and the rescue thinks perhaps Pap was going through silly spring hormone thing.

Sadly I don't feel they are best matched together - with Pip always running from Pap. But time will tell and we will see.

Thanks for your suggestion anyway.