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Baby guinea "panic attacks"

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LunaPig72

Junior Guinea Pig
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Looking to see if any forum members can shed any light or advice on this (sorry, it is long).

I have two baby sows who are now 9 weeks old (have a separate thread under pregnancy/baby care as they are both on pregnancy watch) and live with our 4yo sow. They do zoomie runs and popcorn jumping sessions, interspersed with calmer periods and naps, they eat enthusiastically, poo output normal, they are weighed weekly and are gaining weight well. They live in our family room, seem completely relaxed with family noise (we have noisy teenagers!), and are becoming more and more confident and cheeky.

However, both babies are worrying me because on several occasions each of them has had what I can only describe as a cross between a panic attack and a seizure. It is triggered by something that startles them and they go into something like a totally out of control 'popcorn' jump: they almost ricochet round the cage, squeaking wildly, in a kind of spasmodic, out-of-control fashion. They then fling themselves down and go completely rigid, on their backs, legs and head stretched out, eyes a bit glazed, looking for all the world as if they've had a seizure and died. Except they haven't. Each time, I have picked the guinea up gently (trying not to display any panic, because it's really horrible to see them do it), held her, talked to her gently, soothed her, and within seconds she starts to 'come round'. Legs and general body posture relax and return to normal, her eyes focus, she snuggles in, she'll either start guinea-purring or chirping quietly, she has a little sniff around. After a few minutes I put her gently back in the cage and she will find a corner and sit quietly for maybe 5-10 minutes.

And then it's as if nothing has happened. She'll pootle around, eat some hay, help herself to a nugget, wander up to the loft, wander back down again. There are no issues with general gait (no head tilt, paralysis or noticeable difference in movement) or demeanour afterwards. We had an episode with one of them this morning, and literally within 15 minutes of being back in the cage she had stolen a dandelion leaf from her sister and scuttled off with it. If you didn't see the episodes happening you'd literally never believe they could happen, if that makes sense! But it is really distressing to witness.

I have literally never had a guinea pig do this in over 25 years of piggy ownership and have no idea what to do, other than to try and avoid triggering panic, and to continue to soothe them when it happens.

I should add that both girls have had a thorough vet check, I have explained the episodes to our vet (piggy savvy, but not exotic specialist, though has treated our pigs for the past 12 years) and he cannot find anything wrong with either of them. I am going to try to find an exotics specialist to take them to (we are SW London/Surrey borders, if anyone has any recommendations) to see if they can shed any light, but in the meantime thought I'd post in case any forum members have experienced anything similar?

Thank you in advance!
 
Hello LunaPig72 how terrifying for you and your family - I have no experience of this or advice to offer and I just wanted to offer support - I’m sure one or more of the experienced members will be along to offer advice - take care 🥰
 
LunaPig72 said:
Looking to see if any forum members can shed any light or advice on this (sorry, it is long).

I have two baby sows who are now 9 weeks old (have a separate thread under pregnancy/baby care as they are both on pregnancy watch) and live with our 4yo sow. They do zoomie runs and popcorn jumping sessions, interspersed with calmer periods and naps, they eat enthusiastically, poo output normal, they are weighed weekly and are gaining weight well. They live in our family room, seem completely relaxed with family noise (we have noisy teenagers!), and are becoming more and more confident and cheeky.

However, both babies are worrying me because on several occasions each of them has had what I can only describe as a cross between a panic attack and a seizure. It is triggered by something that startles them and they go into something like a totally out of control 'popcorn' jump: they almost ricochet round the cage, squeaking wildly, in a kind of spasmodic, out-of-control fashion. They then fling themselves down and go completely rigid, on their backs, legs and head stretched out, eyes a bit glazed, looking for all the world as if they've had a seizure and died. Except they haven't. Each time, I have picked the guinea up gently (trying not to display any panic, because it's really horrible to see them do it), held her, talked to her gently, soothed her, and within seconds she starts to 'come round'. Legs and general body posture relax and return to normal, her eyes focus, she snuggles in, she'll either start guinea-purring or chirping quietly, she has a little sniff around. After a few minutes I put her gently back in the cage and she will find a corner and sit quietly for maybe 5-10 minutes.

And then it's as if nothing has happened. She'll pootle around, eat some hay, help herself to a nugget, wander up to the loft, wander back down again. There are no issues with general gait (no head tilt, paralysis or noticeable difference in movement) or demeanour afterwards. We had an episode with one of them this morning, and literally within 15 minutes of being back in the cage she had stolen a dandelion leaf from her sister and scuttled off with it. If you didn't see the episodes happening you'd literally never believe they could happen, if that makes sense! But it is really distressing to witness.

I have literally never had a guinea pig do this in over 25 years of piggy ownership and have no idea what to do, other than to try and avoid triggering panic, and to continue to soothe them when it happens.

I should add that both girls have had a thorough vet check, I have explained the episodes to our vet (piggy savvy, but not exotic specialist, though has treated our pigs for the past 12 years) and he cannot find anything wrong with either of them. I am going to try to find an exotics specialist to take them to (we are SW London/Surrey borders, if anyone has any recommendations) to see if they can shed any light, but in the meantime thought I'd post in case any forum members have experienced anything similar?

Thank you in advance!
Click to expand...

Hi
What a scare!

We haven't come across this on here - some really mad playful popcorns, yes, nor have I with any piggies of mine and that is coming up against 100 over the years.

Some near wild can go blind-mad like this and bounce of the walls when arriving in rescue but it is the ending that is concerning. Unfortunately, neurological research into guinea pigs is outstanding in its pretty much total absence. :(

You seem to be doing what you can and are doing the right thing by staying calm and by building up a good and positive bond with them.
 
Offering support for a scary situation.
Have you either seen a vet or chatted with a vet about this behaviour ?
 
Thank you for the replies and support, I really appreciate it. It really is a weird one.

Yes, I have talked it through with the vet who examined both girls and there was nothing obvious that they could see. However, our vet is a general rather than exotic vet, so my plan is to take the babies to an exotics specialist and ask their advice.

In the meantime I am going to see if it helps to take them out of the cage and pop them into a hay-filled carrier together whilst I do general daily cage care - the panic behaviour seems to be triggered when their cage lid is lifted to do animal husbandry whilst they are in the cage. I want to minimise the stress triggers as much as I can but obviously they have to be given daily food and hay! Our older girl is entirely unbothered by me refilling food bowls or adding hay or dried forage whilst she's in the cage, as I have always done it - she usually comes up nosing for treats whilst I'm working - but the little ones clearly find it very stressful at the moment. Funnily enough they don't seem to find it nearly as stressful to actually be picked up so maybe moving them to a carrier for five minutes each day is the best plan for the time being until I can seek the advice of an exotics vet. I will update the thread once I know more.
 
Sounds as if you are doing everything possible to help them.
Hopefully it’s just nervousness and nothing else.
 
LunaPig72 said:
Thank you for the replies and support, I really appreciate it. It really is a weird one.

Yes, I have talked it through with the vet who examined both girls and there was nothing obvious that they could see. However, our vet is a general rather than exotic vet, so my plan is to take the babies to an exotics specialist and ask their advice.

In the meantime I am going to see if it helps to take them out of the cage and pop them into a hay-filled carrier together whilst I do general daily cage care - the panic behaviour seems to be triggered when their cage lid is lifted to do animal husbandry whilst they are in the cage. I want to minimise the stress triggers as much as I can but obviously they have to be given daily food and hay! Our older girl is entirely unbothered by me refilling food bowls or adding hay or dried forage whilst she's in the cage, as I have always done it - she usually comes up nosing for treats whilst I'm working - but the little ones clearly find it very stressful at the moment. Funnily enough they don't seem to find it nearly as stressful to actually be picked up so maybe moving them to a carrier for five minutes each day is the best plan for the time being until I can seek the advice of an exotics vet. I will update the thread once I know more.
Click to expand...

Being approached from above ie lifting the cage lid would be a trigger. Piggies are most likely going to be attacked from above (birds etc) so any approach from above is terrifying for them.
Is there any way you can put their cage in a table so that you are more on a level with them as you approach them? Obviously the lid still needs to be lifted but being able to see you first may help.
Make sure you talk to them as you approach the cage. Predators approach silently so you need to do the opposite and make sure they know you are there long before you get to the cage.
 
I'm really sorry if it isn't helpful as I haven't heard of this before. Maybe it's something neurological? Sounds a little similar to some kind of fit or seizure. It reminds me of those fainting goats if you've seen a video of them? When they get started or excited they freeze up and go stiff. Is it anything like that? I don't know about the jumping around before hand though :(

It sounds like you're doing everything you can to support them. That would be great to get them seen by a specialist that has a lot of experience in guinea pigs.
 
Just wanted to post an update and also to thank everyone who has taken the time to reply. I really appreciate the suggestions and support.

In answer to a few of the queries raised:

- their C&C cage is on a stand and I always try to sit or kneel when bringing them food or opening the lid - unfortunately the cage is too big to put it onto a table though.
- we never approach them in silence, always start chatting to them as soon as the family room door is opened, my children are well trained to do this every time they go in ("hello piggies, it's only me, I'm just coming in to charge the Nintendo") and generally the pigs respond well to our voices and are quite relaxed in their cage when we are around.
- I am now taking the babies out of the cage, putting them into a lidded carrier with a pile of hay to hide in, when I do general spot cleaning/ hay tray refreshing etc so as to minimise their stress.

Our little ones are doing so well overall - securely bonded with our older girl, eating, popcorning, running zoomies, coming up to take food from my hands, snoozing in the open cage, clearly very happy and settled - but sadly they are still having occasional seizure type episodes. Our more dominant girl, Willow, has had only one seizure (that I've witnessed, anyway) but her sister Daisy has now had six in total over the past few weeks. Each one lasts less than 30 seconds or so and she comes round quickly each time but they are horrible to witness. I have had to safety-proof our C&C cage, using clear acrylic panels secured between the coroplast lining and the grids, because Daisy got her head stuck during one of her seizures last week and I really thought we'd lost her - luckily I was able to ease her head free and she was fine but my nerves are shot to pieces!

The more I observe them the more I suspect it is more neurological than anxiety related but I am not sure whether there is anything a vet can do to help. I'm just worried that one day one of them will have a more severe fit and not come round from it. They are such gorgeous little girls, so sweet and charismatic and cheeky, I just want to give them the best life we can.

I have been researching exotic vets - a frustrating process because so many vet practices seem to highlight 'exotics treatment' on their websites but when I telephone them they then say oh no, we don't actually have an exotics specialist at the practice, but our general vets are experienced in treating exotic pets'. Or I find a genuine exotics specialist only to learn that they have no availability and are not taking any new clients. But finally today I have managed to register with a practice who DO have exotics specialists on site AND can hopefully offer me an appointment some time next week. No idea if a specialist will be able to shed any light on the situation but I'll feel better for trying.
 
LunaPig72 said:
Just wanted to post an update and also to thank everyone who has taken the time to reply. I really appreciate the suggestions and support.

In answer to a few of the queries raised:

- their C&C cage is on a stand and I always try to sit or kneel when bringing them food or opening the lid - unfortunately the cage is too big to put it onto a table though.
- we never approach them in silence, always start chatting to them as soon as the family room door is opened, my children are well trained to do this every time they go in ("hello piggies, it's only me, I'm just coming in to charge the Nintendo") and generally the pigs respond well to our voices and are quite relaxed in their cage when we are around.
- I am now taking the babies out of the cage, putting them into a lidded carrier with a pile of hay to hide in, when I do general spot cleaning/ hay tray refreshing etc so as to minimise their stress.

Our little ones are doing so well overall - securely bonded with our older girl, eating, popcorning, running zoomies, coming up to take food from my hands, snoozing in the open cage, clearly very happy and settled - but sadly they are still having occasional seizure type episodes. Our more dominant girl, Willow, has had only one seizure (that I've witnessed, anyway) but her sister Daisy has now had six in total over the past few weeks. Each one lasts less than 30 seconds or so and she comes round quickly each time but they are horrible to witness. I have had to safety-proof our C&C cage, using clear acrylic panels secured between the coroplast lining and the grids, because Daisy got her head stuck during one of her seizures last week and I really thought we'd lost her - luckily I was able to ease her head free and she was fine but my nerves are shot to pieces!

The more I observe them the more I suspect it is more neurological than anxiety related but I am not sure whether there is anything a vet can do to help. I'm just worried that one day one of them will have a more severe fit and not come round from it. They are such gorgeous little girls, so sweet and charismatic and cheeky, I just want to give them the best life we can.

I have been researching exotic vets - a frustrating process because so many vet practices seem to highlight 'exotics treatment' on their websites but when I telephone them they then say oh no, we don't actually have an exotics specialist at the practice, but our general vets are experienced in treating exotic pets'. Or I find a genuine exotics specialist only to learn that they have no availability and are not taking any new clients. But finally today I have managed to register with a practice who DO have exotics specialists on site AND can hopefully offer me an appointment some time next week. No idea if a specialist will be able to shed any light on the situation but I'll feel better for trying.
Click to expand...
Where are you located? It helps to have a location on your profile. Also, have you checked the recommended vets thread?
 
Just doing a further update on this thread, just in case it is of interest to anyone dealing with similar issues in future.

Our baby guineas have now been seen by an exotics specialist vet and we are awaiting the results of blood tests, which should show if there are any major nasties such as liver or kidney issues, tumours, or epilepsy. They've actually been examined by two separate exotics vets, both of whom have concluded that they are in good physical shape, nothing obvious wrong, both bright and chirpy and gaining weight well. They took a hair sample and found just a very few hay mites on one of the girls so we have some mini Xeno spot-on treatment for that, but the vet's opinion was that it was so very minor that it is likely to have nothing to do with the issues they are having. We just need to err on the side of caution in administering the treatment as the vet advised that ivermectin can also trigger seizures!

Generally, both girls are continuing to have occasional short seizures and we have been given anti seizure medication to administer should a seizure go on for longer than 30 seconds (so far they have always been shorter than this period but there is a chance they will worsen). So for now we await the blood test results and keep fingers crossed there is nothing major wrong.
 
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