At what point do you stop?

[Allie0078]

Hi everyone. my (oldish) Guinea pig Sookie has got a UTI. She started with soft poo; so I thought it was just a tummy upset and stopped her veggies for a day. But i soon realised she was refusing hay and pellets (despite me buying multiple brands and flavours to encourage her). She then started squeaking when she wee’d; she smells awful; her wee was pink. She’s been to the vets and is on 0.2 ml sulfatrim twice daily and 0.1 ml loxicom (for dogs) once daily. She only started Saturday night - and was nibbling bits and bobs. She now won’t eat anything; she’s lethargic. I’m trying to syringe feed (which she’s usually quite good with) - but hardly getting anything into her.

I’ve never had a guinea pig who has turned around after being this ill. And each time it has resulted in the one way trip to the vets. Sookie is 5 1/2 to 6 ish (rescued 3 years ago). I HATE having them put to sleep and almost pray they’ll die at home in their familiar surroundings.

At the moment i will continue to treat a) in the hope it keeps her symptoms at bay and b) to give her at least another 24 hours to perhaps start to respond treatment.

I hope she starts to pick up tomorrow. But if not can I ask if anyone has kept their piggie at home when they are dying? My last Guinea pig had a horrendous last day at the hands of a rather unsympathetic vet. She had pneumonia and by the time she Was put to sleep she was terrified and panting. I really regret taking her to the vets, as she’d been ill and breathless at home but at least she was settled and in her own bed.

any advice appreciated

 

[Merab]

I am so sorry for the situation you are in.
My Jemimah died at home last year 3 months after a terminal diagnosis (tumour).

In this case I was able to give her quality of life. My vet is lovely and said I could just phone for Metacam when I thought she needed it, or if we reached the point when pts was the only option.
I did phone for Metacam a week before she died. She slept away peacefully one night before I felt pts was the next step.

It’s very draining to care for a terminally ill piggy. The grieving starts as soon as you realise it’s terminal.
Hopefully if pts is your only option you will have a more sympathetic vet.
Holding you in my heart

 

[Bill & Ted]

Aw, poor you, it’s a horrible situation. I hope she pulls through.
Is there a possibility that she is not eating because she is in pain? that Loxicom (dogs) does is very low. Could you give her a bit more. My Ted was on 0.3 to 0.4 ml twice a day when he was in pain with his teeth prescribed by my vet. Maybe you could ask your vet? They do better with a dose twice a day becuase there metabolism to very high. Sorry I can offer anymore advice though, but I’m sure someone in the Health team can offer more advice.

 

[Allie0078]

I am so sorry for the situation you are in.
My Jemimah died at home last year 3 months after a terminal diagnosis (tumour).

In this case I was able to give her quality of life. My vet is lovely and said I could just phone for Metacam when I thought she needed it, or if we reached the point when pts was the only option.
I did phone for Metacam a week before she died. She slept away peacefully one night before I felt pts was the next step.

It’s very draining to care for a terminally ill piggy. The grieving starts as soon as you realise it’s terminal.
Hopefully if pts is your only option you will have a more sympathetic vet.
Holding you in my heart

ah thank you. I take Sookie to a different vet surgery as I was traumatised by my last experiences. They are lovely, but you have to stand in the carpark and tell them everything out there. You’re not allowed in. Thank you this has helped. But yes it’s very hard work and I get so upset; I live alone and work full time - so I probably can’t give her what she needs care-wise either. It’s so hard - I wish I could ask her what she wants. X

 

[Allie0078]

Aw, poor you, it’s a horrible situation. I hope she pulls through.
Is there a possibility that she is not eating because she is in pain? that Loxicom (dogs) does is very low. Could you give her a bit more. My Ted was on 0.3 to 0.4 ml twice a day when he was in pain with his teeth prescribed by my vet. Maybe you could ask your vet? They do better with a dose twice a day becuase there metabolism to very high. Sorry I can offer anymore advice though, but I’m sure someone in the Health team can offer more advice.

thank you for this. Yes I do think she is In pain. That’s interesting - I might up it a bit. She’s only a little piggie - but I’m sure she’s had higher doses before. I might try upping it for 24 hours and see how she goes. I think at present the benefits of higher dose might outweigh any risks of It being too high. Just for a short term trial. Thank you again x

 

[Merab]

ah thank you. I take Sookie to a different vet surgery as I was traumatised by my last experiences. They are lovely, but you have to stand in the carpark and tell them everything out there. You’re not allowed in. Thank you this has helped. But yes it’s very hard work and I get so upset; I live alone and work full time - so I probably can’t give her what she needs care-wise either. It’s so hard - I wish I could ask her what she wants. X

Please use the forum as a place to talk out your feelings.
It’s a safe place and we really do understand.
I feel for you dealing with car park consultations- Jemimah was diagnosed just after the first lockdown.
Guilt feelings are perfectly normal.
In grief we always ask what if..... we wonder if somehow we let the piggies down.
Please don’t beat yourself up.
You love Sookie and you are giving her the best possible care.
Make as many happy memories as you can. These will be a strength for you.

 

[Wiebke]

Hi!

Has your girl had her reproductive tract checked and if necessary x-rayed? Since you mention very smelly fluid, it means an infection but the fluid could come from the womb (pyometra) and not necessarily only from the urinary tract. I know this because my Cariad was found to have a grossly enlarged fluid filled womb with a likely cancerous growth in it and required an emergency just a few months after needing a large bladder stone removed. she survived both operations just fine and lived to see her 5th birthday.

It may also be a bacterial (bladder trauma) or sterile bladder infection and a bladder stone stuck in the urethra. I needed to make an emergency trip re. a badly wedged urethral stone with my Teggy only last October. Again, she has come through it with no lasting damage despite being 5 years and some concerns by the operating local general vet due to it being a much tricker job than expected.

If possible, please have her seen and x-rayed as soon as you can tomorrow; it can make all the difference. I am very sorry about the awkward timing. These things have a bad habit of happening at the most incovenient of times.

The loxicom is on the low side; you can safely go up to 0.4 ml dog metacam every 12 hour in extreme pain, which is what member piggies have been prescribed by experienced vets.

Here is our comprehensive practical emergency and end of life care information collection. Please take the time to read it:
Emergency, Crisis and Bridging Care until a Vet Appointment
A Practical and Sensitive Guide to Dying, Terminal Illness and Euthanasia in Guinea Pigs

How to contact a vet out of hours
List Of Life And Death Out-of-hours Emergencies

Fingers very firmly crossed.

 

[Free Ranger]

I agree it's a low dose of painkiller. We typically had 0.23ish ml (of the stronger dog one) twice a day for a 1 kilo plus piggy but she could take twice that volume for a week with no ill effects. Pain can stop them eating. I've read that too low a dose is like an adult taking one paracetamol - it won't really work and any effects quickly wear off. None of mine have ever had any bad effects from twice daily loxicom and they really like the taste.

Antibiotics often need between 1 and 3 days to kick in depending on dose and disease but you don't always see any change in the first 24 hours. She might have picked up a bit by tomorrow morning. If you're not seeing any improvement after 3 days get back in touch with the vet... sometimes there is antibiotic resistance and you can try a different one. We give the Ab before the painkiller as the Ab is bitter and the painkiller is sweet.

There are tips on syringe feeding Complete Syringe Feeding Guide and although it's rough - especially if you are tired and on your own - if you can keep her guts going while the antibiotics have a chance to work it really is the best thing. We use a variety of things - recovery food - mushed up pellets - carrot juice extracted from a nutribullet... anything to tempt piggie to keep going. One girl used to let hay fall from her mouth but could be tempted with the flakes from Fruit n Fibre! Obvs not in the long term, but in the short term we try everything. I put most effort into the feeds at times when they are normally eating, and the more recovery food/mushed pellets the better to keep the guts going. If there is no greedy cage mate try leaving a bowl of mush in the cage or her to help herself to.

I'm so sorry for the bad experience for your other poor piggie. I've kept some at home to die - it's trying to decide what is best for them in terms of controlling pain, and judging what they'd want. She's an older girl - they don't all have the potential to live to 8 or 9 - I'm not sure I've had any beyond 6. But she could just as well get though this and by Wednesday you'll be wondering what you were fretting about. It's the not knowing that is very hard. Right now you're 'in the process', and all you can do is try to keep her warm and comfortable, fed and rested, while the medication has a chance to work. We'll be thinking about you x

 

[Allie0078]

Hi!

Has your girl had her reproductive tract checked and if necessary x-rayed? Since you mention very smelly fluid, it means an infection but the fluid could come from the womb (pyometra) and not necessarily only from the urinary tract. I know this because my Cariad was found to have a grossly enlarged fluid filled womb with a likely cancerous growth in it and required an emergency just a few months after needing a large bladder stone removed. she survived both operations just fine and lived to see her 5th birthday.

It may also be a bacterial (bladder trauma) or sterile bladder infection and a bladder stone stuck in the urethra. I needed to make an emergency trip re. a badly wedged urethral stone with my Teggy only last October. Again, she has come through it with no lasting damage despite being 5 years and some concerns by the operating local general vet due to it being a much tricker job than expected.

If possible, please have her seen and x-rayed as soon as you can tomorrow; it can make all the difference. I am very sorry about the awkward timing. These things have a bad habit of happening at the most incovenient of times.

The loxicom is on the low side; you can safely go up to 0.4 ml dog metacam every 12 hour in extreme pain, which is what member piggies have been prescribed by experienced vets.

Here is our comprehensive practical emergency and end of life care information collection. Please take the time to read it:
Emergency, Crisis and Bridging Care until a Vet Appointment
A Practical and Sensitive Guide to Dying, Terminal Illness and Euthanasia in Guinea Pigs

How to contact a vet out of hours
List Of Life And Death Out-of-hours Emergencies

Fingers very firmly crossed.

thank you. They mentioned X-rays but to treat the infection first. They suspect she may have bladder stones as she’s had a uti before (so ? Causing the reoccurring infection) - she has responded well to this treatment in the past. She’s already on low calcium diet etc. And she’s passing a lot of urine so not in retention. Having said that I agree this is not just a simple infection. I’ll ring tomorrow And see what they say. I’ve given her an extra dose of loxicom so thank you for that, it’s good to know. Her pain is my biggest Concern at the moment x

 

[Wiebke]

thank you. They mentioned X-rays but to treat the infection first. They suspect she may have bladder stones as she’s had a uti before (so ? Causing the reoccurring infection) - she has responded well to this treatment in the past. She’s already on low calcium diet etc. And she’s passing a lot of urine so not in retention. Having said that I agree this is not just a simple infection. I’ll ring tomorrow And see what they say. I’ve given her an extra dose of loxicom so thank you for that, it’s good to know. Her pain is my biggest Concern at the moment x

My suspicion is that it could be the reproductive tract. Cariad was soaking wet and very stinky - but as she was having ongoing issues with her calcium absorption process suddenly gone haywire, I wasn't expecting her womb going wrong when I brought her in for another check.
The guide links have all the detailed practical information to talk you through every aspect. Too much to put into every single thread, especially as it often takes me days to write a single guide and make sure that it is complete and correct.

Fingers very firmly crossed. Hang on in there with feeding support and upping the loxicom if necessary.

 

[Allie0078]

Please use the forum as a place to talk out your feelings.
It’s a safe place and we really do understand.
I feel for you dealing with car park consultations- Jemimah was diagnosed just after the first lockdown.
Guilt feelings are perfectly normal.
In grief we always ask what if..... we wonder if somehow we let the piggies down.
Please don’t beat yourself up.
You love Sookie and you are giving her the best possible care.
Make as many happy memories as you can. These will be a strength for you.

thank you for your kind words and advice. I don’t come on here much anymore - but as soon as I’m in crisis I’m here! i know that members are not vets - but there’s so much experience and understanding to share. I don’t know what I’d do without you all x

 

[Allie0078]

I agree it's a low dose of painkiller. We typically had 0.23ish ml (of the stronger dog one) twice a day for a 1 kilo plus piggy but she could take twice that volume for a week with no ill effects. Pain can stop them eating. I've read that too low a dose is like an adult taking one paracetamol - it won't really work and any effects quickly wear off. None of mine have ever had any bad effects from twice daily loxicom and they really like the taste.

Antibiotics often need between 1 and 3 days to kick in depending on dose and disease but you don't always see any change in the first 24 hours. She might have picked up a bit by tomorrow morning. If you're not seeing any improvement after 3 days get back in touch with the vet... sometimes there is antibiotic resistance and you can try a different one. We give the Ab before the painkiller as the Ab is bitter and the painkiller is sweet.

There are tips on syringe feeding Complete Syringe Feeding Guide and although it's rough - especially if you are tired and on your own - if you can keep her guts going while the antibiotics have a chance to work it really is the best thing. We use a variety of things - recovery food - mushed up pellets - carrot juice extracted from a nutribullet... anything to tempt piggie to keep going. One girl used to let hay fall from her mouth but could be tempted with the flakes from Fruit n Fibre! Obvs not in the long term, but in the short term we try everything. I put most effort into the feeds at times when they are normally eating, and the more recovery food/mushed pellets the better to keep the guts going. If there is no greedy cage mate try leaving a bowl of mush in the cage or her to help herself to.

I'm so sorry for the bad experience for your other poor piggie. I've kept some at home to die - it's trying to decide what is best for them in terms of controlling pain, and judging what they'd want. She's an older girl - they don't all have the potential to live to 8 or 9 - I'm not sure I've had any beyond 6. But she could just as well get though this and by Wednesday you'll be wondering what you were fretting about. It's the not knowing that is very hard. Right now you're 'in the process', and all you can do is try to keep her warm and comfortable, fed and rested, while the medication has a chance to work. We'll be thinking about you x

thank you for all of this advice. Shes Now had an extra dose of loxicom and 5 ml of critical care. Not enough I know, but every little helps. I’ll crank the pain relief up again tomorrow if I think it’ll help. Thank you again it’s very appreciated x

 

[Allie0078]

My suspicion is that it could be the reproductive tract. Cariad was soaking wet and very stinking - but as she was having issues with her calcium absorption process suddenly gone haywire, I wasn't expecting her womb going wrong when I brought her in for another check.
The guide links have all the detailed practical information to talk you through every aspect. Too much to put into every single thread, especially as it often takes me days to write a single guide and make sure that it is complete and correct.

Fingers very firmly crossed. Hang on in there with feeding support and upping the loxicom if necessary.

thank you again. I will definately mention the reproductive thing as she often has a bit of soggyness underneath! She’s as happy as Larry but as a result suffers a trip to the sink for a bath more often than any other pig I’ve had. It does make sense X

 

[Freela]

It's definitely worth getting the the vet to check her reproductive tract and bladder for bladder stones... both can cause pain and UTI symptoms, and both can be treated. I know how hard it is having pets treated in lockdown... we also haven't been able to go in with the pets for over a year... you hand them over at the door and the vet will phone you in your car. It's not ideal, just like so many things in these crazy times!

Best wishes and hope you get some answers. In the meantime, treating pain and encouraging food is the way to go.