Antibiotic question

[Jesse's pigs]

So little Steve had X-rays done Sunday and no sludge or stones were found on the images. The vet said likely a case of cystitis so prescribed a course of baytril (0.28mls) for two weeks and loxicom (0.28mls). I was also given probiotics to stop the poos going runny. I've been giving this since Sunday (and diluting the baytril slightly at the vets orders).

Not been any blood in his pee since and he doesn't scream anymore tho does cry every now and again. The poos are not diarrhoea thank god tho I have noticed today that they have shrunk and don't have their usual uniformed shape. He is still eating and I'm going to give him floortime later to see if he's still perky (he perks up with food but is a little quieter than usual).

I don't want to stop the course too early and do more harm than good. I also have probiotics that I bought from pets at home which I wondered whether I should add to their water?

Thanks for your responses x

What are the signs that will tell me to stop other than diarrhoea

 

[Siikibam]

I think if the vet prescribed it then you have to give it for as long as was said. I’ll tag @Wiebke and @VickiA for further help.
How are you diluting the baytril?

 

[Jesse's pigs]

I think if the vet prescribed it then you have to give it for as long as was said. I’ll tag @Wiebke and @VickiA for further help.
How are you diluting the baytril?

just with water. The vet said it was an idea to dilute slightly because in large concentrations can cause vision problems (which he has seen happen in the past). I dilute the baytril with water and then stick probiotic on the end of the syringe so he gets that too.

I will query again at work tomorrow, but just curious really. My Mo went runny when on baytril (tho had no probiotic) so we just stopped.

 

[VickiA]

The problem with not completing the course is the development of antibiotic resistance. I would check with the vets.

 

[Jesse's pigs]

The problem with not completing the course is the development of antibiotic resistance. I would check with the vets.

Is two weeks the usual length I should be expecting? Sorry despite studying to be a nurse I still question things. Only ever had Mo on antibiotics for a suspected UTI and they said as soon as runny poos, just stop regardless of where you are in the course. At the moment he isn’t runny thank god but just wondering how to help keep this going/keep him his usual self. I can tell he is feeling the antibiotics now and feeling very sorry for himself. Isn’t as active as usual and a bit puffed up sometimes. Still nibbling food which is good tho.

 

[Wiebke]

So little Steve had X-rays done Sunday and no sludge or stones were found on the images. The vet said likely a case of cystitis so prescribed a course of baytril (0.28mls) for two weeks and loxicom (0.28mls). I was also given probiotics to stop the poos going runny. I've been giving this since Sunday (and diluting the baytril slightly at the vets orders).

Not been any blood in his pee since and he doesn't scream anymore tho does cry every now and again. The poos are not diarrhoea thank god tho I have noticed today that they have shrunk and don't have their usual uniformed shape. He is still eating and I'm going to give him floortime later to see if he's still perky (he perks up with food but is a little quieter than usual).

I don't want to stop the course too early and do more harm than good. I also have probiotics that I bought from pets at home which I wondered whether I should add to their water?

Thanks for your responses x

What are the signs that will tell me to stop other than diarrhoea

Hi!

Please always finish any course of medication. In the case of antibiotics, they they build up and their effect lasts beyond the time you give them. If you stop as soon as acute symptoms disappear you prevent this build up and are highly likely to face a return of the problem. Not to mention that stopping antibiotics too early is one of the main contributors to the growing resistance issue.

Smaller and especially thinner poos usually indicate a diminished food intake. Please keep in mind that it is unlimited hay that is the mainstay of the diet (around 80% of the daily food intake) and that you cannot control this by eye. Just watching your piggy eating their veg (ca. 15% of what they should eat in a day) is like watching them eat a snack but not any main meals.
If you have an ill piggy, please always switch from the life long once weekly health monitoring weigh-in and body check over to weighing daily at the same time in order to monitor the actual food intake. the scales don't lie! Kitchen scales are perfectly fine.
Our weight guide will talk you through the details: Weight - Monitoring and Management

If the weight loss surpasses 50g in just a few days you may think about offering extra support feed. This guide here contains all the necessary information and tips for emergency, crisis and bridging care and is worth bookmarking and using whenever necessary: Emergency, Crisis and Bridging Care until a Vet Appointment

Poos should normalise once the effect of the baytril on the gut microbiome is wearing off. If you have got a healthy companion, then please try 'poo soup', i.e. transfer of live healthy gut microbiome, which is much more effective than probiotics. However, it will only do the trick if it is done properly. You can find the recipe in this link here: Probiotics, Recovery Foods And Vitamin C: Overview With Product Links

 

[Jesse's pigs]

So vet gave him another injection to get his gut going Yesterday and he did perk up a little bit. However, he still doesn’t seem interested in food and isn’t really grazing. His wee seems less gritty and was basically clear and I am syringe feeding. In the AM, lunchtime and evening. Must have got about 10mls in (and about to do the afternoon feed). He still has not pooed tho I have found poos like these in his butt. The one the smorning was tiny and had a big mucus plug on it. These are slightly bigger and look slightly better but by no means normal. He is also still puffed up so worried.

 

[Wiebke]

So vet gave him another injection to get his gut going Yesterday and he did perk up a little bit. However, he still doesn’t seem interested in food and isn’t really grazing. His wee seems less gritty and was basically clear and I am syringe feeding. In the AM, lunchtime and evening. Must have got about 10mls in (and about to do the afternoon feed). He still has not pooed tho I have found poos like these in his butt. The one the smorning was tiny and had a big mucus plug on it. These are slightly bigger and look slightly better but by no means normal. He is also still puffed up so worried.

Hi!

if your piggy is off their food, you need to get ideally around 60-90 ml into them feeding ideally every 2-3 hours during the day and once or twice during the night; 40 ml in 24 hours is the minimum survival ratio for a crisis; if they get below that, then they are fighting for their lives. You adjust your frequency of feeding according to how much you get into them with each session and whether they are still losing weight, whether it is stabilising or going up.
Also keep offering as much filtered water as they will take willing to help flush our the bladder by making stronger pees.

Hang on in there and keep pushing!

 

[PigglePuggle]

Something I just noticed in this post is that you say you are giving probiotic at the same time as antibiotic, on the end of the syringe?

The antibiotic and probiotic should be given at least an hour apart, or the antibiotic will stop the probiotic working- you should give the probiotic or poop soup separately, allowing at least an hour before or after the antibiotic.

Healing wheeks and hope he gets well! The antibiotics should be kept up as per the vets advice but do keep up the syringe feeding and ask the vet again if he isnt eating x

 

[Jesse's pigs]

Hi!

if your piggy is off their food, you need to get ideally around 60-90 ml into them feeding ideally every 2-3 hours during the day and once or twice during the night; 40 ml in 24 hours is the minimum survival ratio for a crisis; if they get below that, then they are fighting for their lives. You adjust your frequency of feeding according to how much you get into them with each session and whether they are still losing weight, whether it is stabilising or going up.
Also keep offering as much filtered water as they will take willing to help flush our the bladder by making stronger pees.

Hang on in there and keep pushing!

Thanks for your reply. I’m going to take him to work with me so I can continue syringe feeding at work and monitor his poos. There seems to be more in the cage today, but I’m going to take him so that I can see whether he is actually doing anything or if they are all Bellamy’s- I’m hopeful that some are Steve’s because some are alot smaller than the majority but thankfully look normal.
I’ve again offered a small amount of syringe feed the smorning - only a small bit because he isn’t eating! He is just holding it in his mouth! But I will give it an hour and do it hourly if needs must. My vets are putting out Emeprid to help with his fluid sound that I’m to give twice a day. When the fluid is gone and appetite back they said we’ll try an antibiotic that’s more gentle on the tummy (the one on here that will require a longer course can’t remember it’s name). They said the fact he’s had such a reaction to it in only 4 days is not good.

 

[Jesse's pigs]

Something I just noticed in this post is that you say you are giving probiotic at the same time as antibiotic, on the end of the syringe?

The antibiotic and probiotic should be given at least an hour apart, or the antibiotic will stop the probiotic working- you should give the probiotic or poop soup separately, allowing at least an hour before or after the antibiotic.

Healing wheeks and hope he gets well! The antibiotics should be kept up as per the vets advice but do keep up the syringe feeding and ask the vet again if he isnt eating x

I feel like an idiot but yes they said to give the probiotic with the antibiotic and some before/after. I was giving some in water before, then a bit on the syringe with the antibiotic and then some after again in water. I’ve got two types as well- one called Protexin which is from the vets and then the one from Pets at Home which I’ve now mixed in with the recovery food also so he is getting the good bacteria in.

 

[Jesse's pigs]

Just done another xray and he has bloat.

 

[Siikibam]

Just done another xray and he has bloat.

At least you know what it is. What course of action have they recommended?

 

[piggieminder]

Sending Steve loads of healing vibes and hugs to you.

 

[Jesse's pigs]

At least you know what it is. What course of action have they recommended?

to massage throughout day, continue with the syringe feeding, give loxicom, emeprid every 8 hours and he’s had a steroid injection

 

[honeylucy]

One of my piggies did not do well on baytril. I am not medical so I can only offer my experience, but when my other pig has subsequently been unwell from time to time, I have not allowed her to have baytril , I ask for a different antibiotic. I understand that antibiotics can be specific for different bacteria, but because piggies can go downhill quickly when their digestive system is affected I am very wary of baytril. However I also appreciate that most piggies are ok with baytril, but mine was not.

 

[Jesse's pigs]

So Steve had suspected cystitis diagnosed about a week ago now after having an Xray taken to check for stones after continued crying while toileting and then blood in his wee. No stones or sludge were present so they started me on a course of baytril and loxicom with probiotics to help with the antibiotic.

4 days later he had lost his appetite, lethargic, puffed up and sounding like a water balloon. So we took another xray and this time did an ultrasound where it was confirmed he had bloat. So stopped baytril and loxicom. Started on emeprid and to syringe feed.

Today he seems a lot brighter. No longer sounds like a water balloon. I was giving emeprid every 8 hours, but I’m now going to do it every 12 as he’s been on it for 3 days so see how the bigger gap fares with him.

My concern is:

1- I realise it is likely he’ll get bloat again. Can I keep him on emeprid? I’ve read cases of piggies being on it lifelong on here, but a nurse said it shouldn’t be stayed on because can mess with the gut and how they digest.

2- what do I do about the first problem the whole crying while peeing? At the moment he has stopped crying and produced some really nice big wees, but today I note that while he isn’t crying he seems to again be struggling. So where do I go from here? He is only just coming out from the bloat and I’m anxious about getting more baytril after the reaction this time. Any tips?


Many thanks

 

[Jesse's pigs]

Also, I am afraid that the bond of my boys has failed? I separated on the 6th to ensure I could accurately monitor Steve’s bowel movements and I was taking him to work in order to syringe feed (I usually bring both but because I needed to be sure Steve was pooing I only took him). Attempted to reintroduce yesterday and again just now, but instantly both are very badly teeth chattering, circling and yawning which I know are all signs of a possible fight. I haven’t let it escalate to a fight and have just stopped the attempt because Steve is of course still recovering and I can’t have him injured also.

Thoughts? Is it possibly cos Steve still feels ill so is acting big?

 

[Wiebke]

Hi!

Please speak to your vet again and consider sterile interstitial cystitis with them if symptoms are not going away while on antibiotics. 'Sterile' is a non-bacterial cystitis, hence why the antibiotic is not working. It is a condition that is not well known outside vet circles that don't see piggies often. Treatment is similar to feline sterile cystitis which they may be more familiar with - metacam and lots of glucosamine. It is usually only diagnosed when all other approaches fail.

Also talk about the continuation of the emeprid with them. We are not treating or seeing your guinea pigs and can therefore not comment on this.

Are you continuing to weigh daily in order to monitor the daily food intake and the weight to see how Steve is doing?
It is a vital health monitoring tool that will help you to judge how your boy is doing overall.

Please don't try to reintroduce a guinea pig that is obviously not well. But you may have to brace yourself that they won't go back together. A medical separation can lead to a fall out in adult piggies. That is the reason why we strongly recommend to not separate if at all possible unless there is a real need for it.
Bonds In Trouble

 

[Jesse's pigs]

Hi!

Please speak to your vet again and consider sterile interstitial cystitis with them if symptoms are not going away while on antibiotics. 'Sterile' is a non-bacterial cystitis, hence why the antibiotic is not working. It is a condition that is not well known outside vet circles that don't see piggies often. Treatment is similar to feline sterile cystitis which they may be more familiar with - metacam and lots of glucosamine. It is usually only diagnosed when all other approaches fail.

Also talk about the continuation of the emeprid with them. We are not treating or seeing your guinea pigs and can therefore not comment on this.

Are you continuing to weigh daily in order to monitor the daily food intake and the weight to see how Steve is doing?
It is a vital health monitoring tool that will help you to judge how your boy is doing overall.

Please don't try to reintroduce a guinea pig that is obviously not well. But you may have to brace yourself that they won't go back together. A medical separation can lead to a fall out in adult piggies. That is the reason why we strongly recommend to not separate if at all possible unless there is a real need for it.
Bonds In Trouble

Steve has been dropping in weight. Lost 200grams since this all started. At the moment he is remaining at 1.2 where he was 1.4 when we did the first initial consultation. However, I am still syringe feeding as well as him now eating hay and some pellets (not enough to warrant me not syringe feeding) so hopefully will see this rise again now he is feeling perkier. The poos have started to return to normal which gives me faith that his gut is at least recovering.

Yeah, the separation was only done as a matter of urgency and required in order to properly assess Steve otherwise I wouldn’t have done it- I understand the risks and I never separate unless I have no other choice.


Thanks for your reply. I’ll discuss this with them. In all honesty they aren’t piggy savvy (tho I appreciate the fact they told me this rather than just guess like most have in the past). They can tell me if there is stones etc but in terms of medication they aren’t 100% sure. I will relay it to them and add the bit about the cats and see what they think. I realise the baytril was cut short due to his reaction to it so in all honesty have no idea if it would have even done anything.

The emeprid I did discuss with them and they said best not to do it long term as can affect the digestion process? Just wasn’t sure what you guys thought on this- again it’s an assumption and they can’t say 100% this is true.

Thanks for your reply

 

[Wiebke]

Steve has been dropping in weight. Lost 200grams since this all started. At the moment he is remaining at 1.2 where he was 1.4 when we did the first initial consultation. However, I am still syringe feeding as well as him now eating hay and some pellets (not enough to warrant me not syringe feeding) so hopefully will see this rise again now he is feeling perkier. The poos have started to return to normal which gives me faith that his gut is at least recovering.

Yeah, the separation was only done as a matter of urgency and required in order to properly assess Steve otherwise I wouldn’t have done it- I understand the risks and I never separate unless I have no other choice.


Thanks for your reply. I’ll discuss this with them. In all honesty they aren’t piggy savvy (tho I appreciate the fact they told me this rather than just guess like most have in the past). They can tell me if there is stones etc but in terms of medication they aren’t 100% sure. I will relay it to them and add the bit about the cats and see what they think. I realise the baytril was cut short due to his reaction to it so in all honesty have no idea if it would have even done anything.

The emeprid I did discuss with them and they said best not to do it long term as can affect the digestion process? Just wasn’t sure what you guys thought on this- again it’s an assumption and they can’t say 100% this is true.

Thanks for your reply

Please discuss the emeprid with your vet; however as long as your piggy is not able to hold their weight on their own, I would not stop it.

I currently have got three piggies with sterile IC here but have had another couple in the past; all three are now stable with just the occasional flare ups. We see it on the forum as one of the more common issues when people with an unresponsive UTI and no stones/sludge find us. In our experience, it has overtaken a bacterial urine infection as the main cause as more people are keeping their piggies indoors than decade ago when sterile IC started to become more common.
Below is some more information. The latest research has shown that cartrofen infections in more severe cases can help but this is currently just in the trial phase by UK vets to see how it works in practice and there is not yet a consense as to the best interval of injections and when they are recommended. Now doubt that will happen in the coming years.

 

[Jesse's pigs]

Just as I thought woohoo everything is going back to normal again... I now have found a lump on Steve.

It is on his left side near his left nipple. Is where he was shaved for the ultrasound. Slightly raised but not significantly I only really noticed it cos I had him in a funny position to syringe feed. It moves when I touch it...not sure if this is good or bad. But he does not like me touching it at all!

Not looking for a diagnosis but piggies can just get lumps right? Yet again worrying.

 

[piggieminder]

Sending you hugs, these things do seem to come at once. Best to let the vet see it for proper treatment and diagnosis.