Another adolescent boars fighting thread

[anth_85]

I have two females, part of the reason we got girls was to avoid the issues with boys fighting with them being our first guinea pigs. We have a 4x2 C&C with a 2x2 loft so 6x2 total. We have an outdoor enclosure, floor size is 133cm by 115cm, with the upstairs part being 60cm by 115cm. Our girls swap between their indoor and outdoor space regularly and I move the outdoor pen each time to give them fresh grass to eat (it also saves me cutting it so much).

So scene set. My wife's work friend asked us if we could look after her two young boars. We thought, no problem, we have 2 spaces, one pair can be outside and one inside then swap them round every few days, easy enough. It would be have been nice if they could mix but we don't want babies so they can't. The boys are about 3-4 months I think and we have seen them fighting in both the indoor and outdoor spaces. There are plenty of hides with multiple entrances in, 2 water sources, 2 food bowls, 2 large piles of hay. This morning we found one boy with blood around his mouth, the other with teeth marks in his back and some fur on the ground. Clearly they had been fighting through the night.

I now don't know what to do, in all honesty I don't know much about boys other than they need a bit more space than girls. They do seem to spend their time on different levels of whichever enclosure they are in so they are avoiding each other. I am worried that any chance of them bonding is now gone, but they aren't ours, we just have them for two weeks. It's only day 3. Could it be the new space for them causing more stress and they will calm down? I do have some more C&C panels so could increase my indoor cage to 4x2 + 3x2 and remove the ramp to keep them separate. I would then worry they are lonely. They aren't our pets, so I also don't want to completely destroy any chance of them ever being happy together again.

I'll take any advice at this point.

 

[anth_85]

To add to this, the boys are currently split up in time out, one in the outdoor hutch, the other in a soft pop up pen next to it. I needed to stop them hurting each other anymore than they already have.

 

[Piggies&buns]

I’m sorry to hear of the fight.

Just to clarify, a 4x2 c&c with a 2x2 loft is not a 6x2 cage. It is a 4x2 cage. Upper levels do not count towards the cage size as piggies are ground roaming creatures so the cage had to meet size requirements on the bottom level.
A 4x2 is fine for your sows.

The hutch in the picture - as the bottom half is a run it can’t count as living space, it is therefore the upper level which they would need to be shut into at night and that which is the counted living space. It is a tad too small for the sows (120x60 is the smallest size they should be in) but it falls terribly short for the boys to have gone in and have been locked in the top half at any time (lack of space will contribute to issues particularly with teen boars).

As for the boars, the cause of their issues here, to me, are multiple.
The biggest issue is that you are moving them from indoors to outdoors and using the same cage for both the girls and the boys. The boys have been exposed to the scent of the girls when you put them into the other cages and consequently have fought over the girls even though they couldn’t see them.
There is also the fact that they are coming up to being teenagers and hormones are starting to rise when issues can occur anyway.
Along with the fact that any new environment causes them to reestablish their relationship which takes around two weeks. Therefore changing them from one cage to the other every few days will cause a new round of dominance every single time - it’s a lot of stress on them but now a fight has occurred, it’s too late to come back from it - then add on the fact the cage would have smelled of the girls and there is your catalyst for a fight and a bond break.

Sadly though, now fights have occurred between the boys with injuries, their bond is now broken and they will need to be separated.
That means that you will need to set up two cages indoors and keep the two boys next to each other for the duration of their stay with you. They will need a 3x2 each to meet minimum requirements for a single piggy. They need to be side by side so they can interact between the bars - they cannot be one up and one down.

Their owner is going to need to prepare separate cages for when they get home.
Where there is an actual fight and injuries, we wouldn’t recommend they are reintroduced.
Should the owner decide to try to reintroduce when they are home, reintroduction would have to be done on neutral territory but, again where actual fights, a reintroduction is unlikely to work.

If you are in a part of the UK currently in a heatwave, please do not put the piggies outside at all during the day.

*to add, it’s not just the babies risk that you can’t have mixed them. You can never put two boars in with sows whether the boars are neutered or not. Doing that would have also caused immediate fights and ruined the bond between the boars.

 

[anth_85]

I’m sorry to hear of the fight.

Just to clarify, a 4x2 c&c with a 2x2 loft is not a 6x2 cage. It is a 4x2 cage. Upper levels do not count towards the cage size as piggies are ground roaming creatures so the cage had to meet size requirements on the bottom level.
A 4x2 is fine for your sows.

The hutch in the picture - as the bottom half is a run it can’t count as living space, it is therefore the upper level which they would need to be shut into at night and that which is the counted living space. It is a tad too small for the sows (120x60 is the smallest size they should be in) but it falls terribly short for the boys to have gone in and have been locked in the top half at any time (lack of space will contribute to issues particularly with teen boars).

As for the boars, the cause of their issues here, to me, are multiple.
The biggest issue is that you are moving them from indoors to outdoors and using the same cage for both the girls and the boys. The boys have been exposed to the scent of the girls when you put them into the other cages and consequently have fought over the girls even though they couldn’t see them.
There is also the fact that they are coming up to being teenagers and hormones are starting to rise when issues can occur anyway.
Along with the fact that any new environment causes them to reestablish their relationship which takes around two weeks. Therefore changing them from one cage to the other every few days will cause a new round of dominance every single time - it’s a lot of stress on them but now a fight has occurred, it’s too late to come back from it - then add on the fact the cage would have smelled of the girls and there is your catalyst for a fight and a bond break.

Sadly though, now fights have occurred between the boys with injuries, their bond is now broken and they will need to be separated.
That means that you will need to set up two cages indoors and keep the two boys next to each other for the duration of their stay with you. They will need a 3x2 each to meet minimum requirements for a single piggy. They need to be side by side so they can interact between the bars - they cannot be one up and one down.

Their owner is going to need to prepare separate cages for when they get home.
Where there is an actual fight and injuries, we wouldn’t recommend they are reintroduced.
Should the owner decide to try to reintroduce when they are home, reintroduction would have to be done on neutral territory but, again where actual fights, a reintroduction is unlikely to work.

If you are in a part of the UK currently in a heatwave, please do not put the piggies outside at all during the day.

*to add, it’s not just the babies risk that you can’t have mixed them. You can never put two boars in with sows whether the boars are neutered or not. Doing that would have also caused immediate fights and ruined the bond between the boars.

Thanks, sounds like we've done more harm than the intended good by trying to give them time outside on the grass. I have enough C&C to make up a 6x2 with divider so i'll get that setup today in a different part of the house far away from our girls, and they can stay there while they are with us. Hopefully that will start to re-establish a bond before they go back home. The owner can then decide how she wants to proceed.

We are up in the north, so it's not a heatwave here. Highest we've hit is 19c.

 

[Piggies&buns]

Thanks, sounds like we've done more harm than the intended good by trying to give them time outside on the grass. I have enough C&C to make up a 6x2 with divider so i'll get that setup today in a different part of the house far away from our girls, and they can stay there while they are with us. Hopefully that will start to re-establish a bond before they go back home. The owner can then decide how she wants to proceed.

We are up in the north, so it's not a heatwave here. Highest we've hit is 19c.

You had good intentions. Bonded boars do need careful treatment in many aspects of keeping them and importantly to never be exposed to sow pheromones.

Sadly once a bond is broken it will never be reestablished, no matter how long they live side by side. Once it’s broken, it’s broken for life - they don’t tend to change their minds about each other.

You are likely to see behaviours between the bars - things like laying next to each other at the bars, rumbling at each other etc. these are not friendly behaviours and are instead hostile, territory marking behaviours.

This guide will help you/their owner with caring for separated piggies
Boars: Teenage, Bullying, Fighting, Fall-outs And What Next?

 

[anth_85]

You had good intentions. Bonded boars do need careful treatment in many aspects of keeping them and importantly to never be exposed to sow pheromones.

Sadly once a bond is broken it will never be reestablished, no matter how long they live side by side. Once it’s broken, it’s broken for life - they don’t tend to change their minds about each other.

You are likely to see behaviours between the bars - things like laying next to each other at the bars, rumbling at each other etc. these are not friendly behaviours and are instead hostile, territory marking behaviours.

This guide will help you/their owner with caring for separated piggies
Boars: Teenage, Bullying, Fighting, Fall-outs And What Next?

Thanks, my wife has just got home from work and I’ve told her your response. I’m going to build up the 6x2 now. She said they have drawn blood from a fight before they came to us. So I think the owner won’t be too surprised when she returns and we explain what’s been going on.

 

[Piggies&buns]

Ah right, the issues while at your house are simply a continuation of a failing/failed bond - the sows and cage changes were fuel on the already well alight fire but their bond was over before they came to you. The owner should have separated them at the point of the first fight.

 

[Merab]

Welcome to the forum.
Just offering support

 

[anth_85]

Ah right, the issues while at your house are simply a continuation of a failing/failed bond - the sows and cage changes were fuel on the already well alight fire but their bond was over before they came to you. The owner should have separated them at the point of the first fight.

Yea I think that’s probably the case. I’ve got the 6x2 nearly made up. Just sorting cutting the coroplex stuff to size, my girls will have to do without their loft for a couple of weeks but needs must.

 

[anth_85]

I've measured up the space near my 4x2 cage for my girls, I can fit the two 3x2 with the two boys in near them. It would be an L shape if that makes sense. Since they are split up will they be ok to be in the same room or would the smell of the sows being nearby send them nuts? The would be roughly 10cm between the cages, with the girls cage having a clear perspex panel so no way of any physical connection between them. The reason I would like to move them is because they are currently in a room we don't really use that much so they get very little interaction with us.

 

[Piggies&buns]

I've measured up the space near my 4x2 cage for my girls, I can fit the two 3x2 with the two boys in near them. It would be an L shape if that makes sense. Since they are split up will they be ok to be in the same room or would the smell of the sows being nearby send them nuts? The would be roughly 10cm between the cages, with the girls cage having a clear perspex panel so no way of any physical connection between them. The reason I would like to move them is because they are currently in a room we don't really use that much so they get very little interaction with us.

They are ok in the same room with the sows now the two boys can no longer fight with each other.
However :
Boars can become very determined and try (and succeed) to climb out the cages to try to get in with girls - I do note you you have Perspex panels - are all the panels Perspex or are some normal grids? If there are any that are grid then it is possible if the boys did get out, that they could use any grids to climb into the girls cage.
It is possible they may get frustrated/upset by the sow smells being in the same room.

You may need to play things by ear - it is possible they could be better off in the other room even though you don’t use the room that much. The key thing on staving off loneliness is that they can interact with each other between the bars

 

[anth_85]

They are ok in the same room with the sows now the two boys can no longer fight with each other.
However :
Boars can become very determined and try (and succeed) to climb out the cages to try to get in with girls - I do note you you have Perspex panels - are all the panels Perspex or are some normal grids? If there are any that are grid then it is possible if the boys did get out, that they could use any grids to climb into the girls cage.
It is possible they may get frustrated/upset by the sow smells being in the same room.

You may need to play things by ear - it is possible they could be better off in the other room even though you don’t use the room that much. The key thing on staving off loneliness is that they can interact with each other between the bars

No the girls cage only has Perspex on one side to keep children’s fingers out. The other side are bars where children can’t get to so to give good air flow. Both cages are raised off the floor so it would take a very determined boar to get in.

They can interact with each other as they are. It’s quite clear who is the grumpy one. They are called Thor and Loki. Thor was the one with blood on his mouth and he has no interest in being near Loki. Loki who had the bite mark on his rear end is regularly trying to get into Thor’s side. I’m sure this means something but I’m not sure what.