• Discussions taking place within this forum are intended for the purpose of assisting you in discussing options with your vet. Any other use of advice given here is done so at your risk, is solely your responsibility and not that of this forum or its owner. Before posting it is your responsibility you abide by this Statement

Anorexia/malocclusion in female g. pig - requesting advice on feeding

  • Thread starter Thread starter simply splendid
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
S

simply splendid

Bonnie Agatha, born 09/2006, (see photographs in album) appeared unable to eat normally and lost weight (down to 950 gms from 1200 gms). Vet consultation identified small swelling on base of left lower jaw and overgrown cheek teeth. Was anaesthetised 20/02/09 for trimming of all teeth. Baytril (0.5ml daily) prescribed.

On return from vet was lame in left foreleg; had large swelling on left upper jaw under eye; unable to grasp, chew or swallow food although appeared interested in food. Was given water and food (soaked pellets with added vitamin C and probiotic) by syringe approximately every three hours. Given Baytril with food in two 0.25 ml doses twelve hours apart.

Textbook suggests 6 gms food per 100 gms body weight therefore Bonnie should be taking 60 gms per day minimum (more if she is to recover lost weight). She is weighed before and after every feeding. For first week would accept only small feeds (less than 5 gms per session). Total daily intake around 20-25 gms. Second week, accepted 10-14 gms per session but at wider intervals. Total daily intake around 35-45 gms. Her weight varies during average day from 975 gms at 8 am to 1000 gms at midnight. Most of this intake is water; she is receiving very few calories per day.

During second week began feeding herself but with great difficulty as front teeth have become maloccluded (they were not noticably maloccluded prior to this episode). Her incisors are useless and she attempts to grasp and chew food using the right side of her mouth and right cheek teeth. Eats only soft foods (e.g. cucumber; lettuce; cooked broccoli). I will attempt to photograph this and post it in my album.

Cries if placed in the large enclosure with my two other female g. pigs therefore housed alone in small wire-walled enclosure (4’ x 2’) inside main indoor pen. She can hear, smell and see other g. pigs and seems to be stimulated to eat by their eating. Is also encouraged to eat if I make eating noises whilst syringe feeding her.

Is no longer lame in left foreleg. Can move quite freely but spends most of her time in her pen sleeping on hay. If she hears me she sits up and begs to be held. Not restless. Enjoys cuddles of an hour or more (used to get restless after twenty minutes). Coat shiny; eyes bright – appears well except very thin (hollows over hips) and this enormous swelling on left upper jaw. Produces small, dry stools regularly (some of which she is able to eat). Produces urine regularly – urine appears normal but smaller quantity than usual.

Advice requested:

(a) How to stimulate her appetite in order to encourage her to feed herself as much as possible, especially to encourage her to begin eating hay and drinking water?
(b) How to ensure she receives highly nutritious food? Are soaked pellets the best basic diet at this time?
(c) How to give Baytril – should it be with food or between feeds?
(d) Although not visibly in pain, I wonder whether she is suffering and thus not eating. I have been feeding romaine lettuce because she can chew it herself and because it is a natural anti-inflammatory and painkiller. What more can I do to provide pain relief?

Comments invited:

(d) Has veterinary treatment been appropriate? If not, what should be done to improve care? For example, personally I am concerned that we have not x-rayed the teeth. I would like to identify whether swelling is due to abscess and where the abscess is located i.e. in bone or soft tissues. I would also like to eliminate the possibility that swelling/malocclusion is due to apical eruption through upper or lower jaw bones.
(e) Speculation on possible cause of swelling on upper left jaw? Suggested treatment?
(f) Prognosis?

Your advice / comments will not replace my vet’s advice but they will help me understand what questions I should be asking when I take Bonnie back for check-up later this week.

Many thanks.
 
Try Supa Guinea Excel Pellets, soaked in water and then syringe fed. A pig of that weight should need about double the amount you are giving.
I won't repeat my comments about vets. However I will repeat that there is NEVER amount need for sedation or a general anaesthetic for ANY dental treatment.
What condition are her incisors in now compared to their state before treatment?
The swelling could be an abscess. I can understand your logic for giving her lettuce but 5mg of Rimadyl twice daily would be much better.
 
Have pm`d you re this as you need quite a lot of help and support.

Some advice posted in this thread will help others in this situation also. I for one am interested to learn from this.

I second that sedation or anesthetic is unnecessary for almost all kinds of dental work. The swelling could well be an abscess, which can occur in relation to some dental issues.
 
Last edited:
May I suggest that you telephone the Cambridge Cavy Trust, it is a published number,
 
What an awful thing to be going through, sadly I have no advice as I haven't faced this yet as all my pigs are under 2 years.

I always thought that Critical care was the best thing to give rather than mashed pellets? Critical care is avaliable from any good vets, you mix with water to make a paste and feed with a syringe.

Sorry can't be more help. Do hope you get some advice. :)

Welcome to the forum by the way.

Louise
 
Your vet should be able to inject B vitamin shot to stimulate the appetite - this has worked well for mine in the past.

If you're giving antibiotics, you also need to give pro-biotics inbetween to restore the good bacteria. Your vet should be able to give you BioLapis sachets, you mix with water and syringe. Or you can buy this online. AviPro plus is another brand.

Critical care is a complete formula especially for feeding convalescent animals - you can buy this online at sph supplies. Galen's Garden also do a similar thing, I can't remember the name of it off the top of my head though. Mashed pellets are ok but I don't think they're nutritionally complete.

You need to keep her hydrated as well, if you're not sure how much she's getting.

It's important to keep her guts moving, so tempt her with fresh grass etc. to keep her eating voluntarily if possible.

I hope she's on the mend soon

Sophie
x
 
Some advice posted in this thread will help others in this situation also. I for one am interested to learn from this.

I second that sedation or anesthetic is unnecessary for almost all kinds of dental work. The swelling could well be an abscess, which can occur in relation to some dental issues.

I am Maryh,not Delia.! I have been off this forum for a while and had problems relogging in,so reregistered.

It does sound as if there was a abcess forming on the lower jaw.There is no need to aneasthetize to do dental work,I supect that the vet might be inexperienced with smaller animals,and the temporary problem with the linb may have been caused by a rough injection during surgery.Also it is possible that the swelling on the top jaw was caused by rough handling during surgery,it could just be bruising.

The dose rate of Baytril at 0.5ml is too high,0.2ml twice a day is the correct dose.Baytril can in some gp`s cause anorexia and diarrheoa.

You are correct in thinking that 60mls per day is the least amount to sustain a gp that is not eating at all by itself.If the gp is able to chew a bit this should be encouraged,either grate the veg or cut into tiny slithers which can be placed in the side of the mouth at the back.The inscissors are only used for picking up and cutting food.
Critical Care is good for syringe feeding,but I do not use this by itself.Grind up some of the gp`s normal pellet/muesli in a coffee grinder and mix with warm water to a soup consistancy.This can be mixed with 2 teaspoonfuls of Critical Care.If you have a liquidizer any veg can be pureed and added to the mix or given seperately.1ml syringes or 2 ml syringes can be used for feeding.It is sometimes a good idea to cut the nozzle off of a 2ml as this will give you a bigger hole,which means you can make the mix a bit thicker.
Give a vitimin c supplement to any gp that is not eating properly or has an infection.
Unless the swelling in the jaw subsides in the next day or 2 I would definately have an x ray or scan done to see if there is an abcess or tumour.I think it unlikely though,because of the speed the lump appeared.There is no need for sedation for x ray or scan.

Bio-Lapis aand Avipro are both very good probiotics which will help stabalise the gut and replace good flora which may be destroyed by the Baytril.

I give extra water when syringe feeding because gp`s can quickly get dehydrated.The signs of this are sunken,smaller looking eyes,and the skin will not feel so elastic if you gently pinch it.If you suspect your piggy is not getting enough fluid,use a propietry rehydration thereapy such as Diarylite or Boots own.

Good luck with this,it is always very exhausting and stressful when you have a sick piggy,especially when they are dependant on syringe feeding.

Mary
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Critical Care and Supreme Science Recovery are quite expensive, mashed pellets are perfectly adequate. Don't be taken in by advertising eg food for old pigs, young pigs, sick pigs pigs with long purple hair etc etc!
A useful appetite stimulant is "Metatone" available in all good pharmacies etc. Dose rate is about 0.3ml twice a day for 2-3 days. It is one of those "drugs" where it is a case of try it and see if there is an improvement, sometimes one dose is adequate.
Vitamin C can also be beneficial. A quarter of an effervescent Vit C tab dissolved in about 50ml of water and given as necessary. You cannot overdose with Vit C so as much as the pig wants.
(Doubtless someone will now say that Vit C in large amounts can cause diarrhoea )
 
Baytril dose
2.5% Baytril 0.4ml twice daily.
An x-ray is unnecessary, the abscess, if it is an abscess, will not have been present long enough to cause bony involvement. I am wondering if there were soft tissue damage when the teeth were being trimmed. An abscess can easily develop to a diameter of 2cm within the space of a few hours.
 
I have just noticed that you ask when to give Baytril. 08.00 hrs and 20.00hrs is a good routine,but of course it has to be a time to suit your own lifestyle.

Give the Baytril about half an hour before feeding,but this is not critical.





Mary
 
Critical Care and Supreme Science Recovery are quite expensive, mashed pellets are perfectly adequate. Don't be taken in by advertising eg food for old pigs, young pigs, sick pigs pigs with long purple hair etc etc!
A useful appetite stimulant is "Metatone" available in all good pharmacies etc. Dose rate is about 0.3ml twice a day for 2-3 days. It is one of those "drugs" where it is a case of try it and see if there is an improvement, sometimes one dose is adequate.
Vitamin C can also be beneficial. A quarter of an effervescent Vit C tab dissolved in about 50ml of water and given as necessary. You cannot overdose with Vit C so as much as the pig wants.
(Doubtless someone will now say that Vit C in large amounts can cause diarrhoea )

I agree about the Critical not always being neccesary.I do not always use it.Depends whether the gp is able to eat at all by itself,if it can I do not use the Critical Care.
I also agree that there is a lot of rubbish on the market, "treats" for example that contain sugar and sometimes egg.All gp`s need is a good variety of veg,hay and a good muesli or pellets.

I think vitimin C is essential for any gp not eating ,or poorly.It boosts the immune system and helps recovery.
I know Peter used to recommend Metatone but I do not use it,I just use the vitimin c.
I like the liquid variety of C as you can put the dose straight into the mouth.

Mary
 
Welcome back Mary! :)

So what is the best way to mash pellets as I never have any luck with it? I do have Critical Care in all the time I pay 7.50 for a small bag, yes it is expensive but thankfully I haven't had to use much. :)
 
With Supa Excel the best way is to put a small quantity in a dish and cover with hot water, keep adding water until the paste will absorb no more. Then WAIT whilst the mix softens up, the temptation is to use a lot of effort trying to mix to a smooth consistency. Use a 1ml syringe, the Braun Injekt (not inject) are the most suitable, but difficult to get hold of these days.They have a green plunger with no rubber bung on the end of the plunger. There is NO need to cut the tip off the syringe, at the right consistency the mix will be drawn up into the syringe very easily. These syringeswill last maybe 10-14 days. The other sort, with a rubber bung on the end of the plunger last 3-4 days.
 
Welcome back Mary. I thought it was unusual that you hadn't been posting for a while :)
 
Thanks for the welcome back.I have been busy with photographic stuff and the care page on the other forum(should not really mention that on here!)

I find the best way to mush the pellets/muesli is to put a couple of handfulls into a coffee grinder,and make a fine powder.This can be mixed with warm water to a consistancy that you need.A cheap basic coffee grinder will do.

Mary
 
Many thanks to all who have contributed advice and information

I have found it very useful to read the very informative posts in reply to my request for help. I am very grateful that you have taken the time to respond so promptly and in such practical detail. I shall take a summary of your comments with me when I see my vet tomorrow. I will let you know what treatment plan we agree on next. Meanwhile, I shall try to post some photographs of Bonnie to illustrate the problems I have been describing. I apologise for the quality of the images, I am using my mobile phone camera (hence my avitar) and it is not that good for macro shots.
 
Photographs of Bonnie

For some reason I am unable to post images to my Guinea Pig Forum albums. I have put some photographs of Bonnie on-line via a temporary website at www.baptistini.info (I own this domain but have not developed the website for it yet). Please respond to the images through the forum as there is no e-mail link through the temporary website. Thank you.

For those who prefer not to visit the website here is a photograph which shows the swelling on Bonnie's right face and her malocclusion.
 

Attachments

  • ill05.webp
    ill05.webp
    18.6 KB · Views: 42
Bonnie is beautiful, a lovely piggie. That does look like quite a swelling. Has the vet tried to draw anything out of the lump with a needle? I am concerned about the positions of the incisors, though the jaw may be twisted due to the swelling. I think the next step would be to find out what the lump is and get it drained/removed, as the teeth won't be able to wear correctly until the jaw can sit normally.
 
Abscess, drain via an incision, don't play around with a needle aspiration, then Baytril. Incisors look a mess. Have they been trimmed?
 
Update on Bonnie

Vet appointment 11 am 06/03/09
Vet was surprised by the size of the abscess and the distortion it had caused to Bonnie's bite. I asked vet if she needed to x-ray Bonnie. Vet decided x-ray unnecessary. We agreed that Bonnie's abscess should be lanced and drained. I rejected the option of general anaesthetic as I felt that Bonnie was not strong enough for that. We agreed on a local anaesthetic only.

I asked vet if she thought abscess in soft tissues or in bone. She said she suspected it had originated in teeth (i.e. the boney sockets around the roots) and spread to soft tissues, in which case she thought the prognosis was poor as it can be impossible to eliminate infection from such locations. I felt she was hinting I needed to prepare myself for the option of euthenasia.

Vet did not carry out the procedure while I was present but kept Bonnie at the surgery for treatment that afternoon.

2 pm 06/03/09
Vet phoned to tell me that the abscess had been opened and an 'astonishing amount of puss' removed. Wound was cleaned. Bonnie given antibiotic (Baytril). I could collect her. I asked for further advice on after-care. Vet seemed surprised to be asked and was dismissive - would be told what to do by practice nurse. Suggested I bring Bonnie back for follow-up appointment after five days (i.e. on 11/03/09).

4 pm 06/03/09
Called to collect Bonnie. Made appointment for 11/03/09. Paid the bill.

Asked practice nurse for advice on cleaning the wound. Was asked to make an appointment to see another vet before taking Bonnie home. Did so. Waited an hour to see the second vet.

Second vet told me she had g. pigs of her own. She was very helpful in answering all my questions about Bonnie's care. On request, she prescribed an analgesic (Metacam). When I asked about feeding Bonnie she suggested pineapple juice as a good stimulant for the GI tract since pineapples have beneficial enzymes. She suggested a follow-up appointment in three days 'since these little animals can get very ill so quickly' and speculated about options for more complex surgery on the teeth if these continued to be a source of infection. Although she agreed that the outlook was serious she seemed more hopeful than the first vet. I found this reassuring since I feel hope and a positive attitude can turn the scales in favour of a successful outcome in any doubtful situation.

Before leaving I changed my appointment to 09/03/09 and paid for the Metacam.

6 pm 06/03/09
Bonnie seems quite well - far better than she was after the general anaesthetic. Syringe feeding her (giving pineapple juice, vitamin C solution, probiotics, pellet mash, pureed veggies, salad veggies and any other foods she will take). She has tried feeding herself (mouthed parsley, cucumber and dried food) but is not yet successfully feeding. Her face is more symmetrical and her teeth are in a more normal position. She is grinding them quite a bit - I see this as a good sign.

10 pm 06/03/09
Since I have been able to get some food into Bonnie (13 gms), I have given her a dose of Metacam (0.2 ml per day, after food). I am hoping that with pain relief she will have more appetite for food.

I have posted some photographs of Bonnie post-treatment on my website www.baptistini.info and will add an image here. Warning, it is quite ugly.

Her wound is already beginning to close. I have been trying to keep it open by cleaning it with cotton buds dipped in strong saline solution. I removed a tiny amount of puss from a corner of the wound, otherwise it looks very clean and healthy.

Incidentally, she now stinks. I am not sure whether it is Bonnie, her wound or something else but something smells quite unpleasant. I don't know whether it would be appropriate to give her a bath...

I will keep you informed about progress.

Your comments are welcome.

Images: first shows Bonnie's draining wound; second shows Bonnie's face post-treatment, it is now much more symmetrical (those dribbles were caused by syringe feeding - she does not normally dribble). I'll try to get some better quality images over the weekend.
 

Attachments

  • ill11.webp
    ill11.webp
    31.5 KB · Views: 34
  • ill12.webp
    ill12.webp
    23.9 KB · Views: 32
Bonnie is beautiful & obviously has that fighting spirit. Her wound looks terrible yet she's still wanting to eat, how fantastic :)

Manuka honey is supposed to be excellent for abscesses, i've never used it myself but there may be someone on here who has.
 
About The Incisors

Abscess, drain via an incision, don't play around with a needle aspiration, then Baytril. Incisors look a mess. Have they been trimmed?

My vets agreed with your treatment plan.

I assume the incisors were trimmed when the cheek teeth were trimmed (on 20/02/09). I don't know how they were trimmed (e.g. by grinding or cutting). I cannot comment on my vet's dentistry skills or otherwise as I am unqualified to judge. But I trust my vets to do their best. They are 'general practice' vets not specialists. I would take Bonnie to a rodentologist if one were available in my region but I do not know of one on Tyneside.

The good news is that after the abscess was drained, the incisors returned to a much more normal position, not perfectly aligned but close. She has started to grind her teeth and I see this as a good thing.
 
When referring to left and right side it is convention to refer to the l and r of the animal NOT the l and r on the photo. Failure to adhere to this can lead to unfortunate operative mistakes!

Your pig is a long way from needing to be killed. Please refer to my previous post about chronic abscesses. It would seem more likely than not that the infection was triggered either by one of the teeth being split vertically down the root and/or soft tissue damage. Continue to be wary of professional advice!
PLEASE DO NOT get involved with further complex surgery, whatever that is, on the teeth.
I have more fear for your pig from being treated as opposed to not being treated.
I can only repeat my advice to contact the CCT.
 
Bonnie Agatha Means Beautiful & Good

Bonnie is beautiful, a lovely piggie. That does look like quite a swelling. Has the vet tried to draw anything out of the lump with a needle? I am concerned about the positions of the incisors, though the jaw may be twisted due to the swelling. I think the next step would be to find out what the lump is and get it drained/removed, as the teeth won't be able to wear correctly until the jaw can sit normally.

Thank you. Bonnie is normally beautiful. She is not looking her best at present(!) But once she is back to health I think she will be stunning again. Her coat is very soft and glossy. But her biggest charm is her lovely character. She is genuinely affectionate, a real lap-pig.

I met two vets today. I think the first vet saw a mis-shapen, ugly pig and came to a (probably unconscious) decision that the prognosis was poor. I think the second vet saw a sweet little piggy, bravely enduring a serious illness and (probably unconsciously) came to a more optimistic prognosis. Appearances do matter. Maybe they shouldn't, but they do. I want to say to the vets, 'She's normally much cuter than this!' I feel that if they have sympathy for her they will be more hopeful for her and this will pay off in a better outcome.

Maybe I haven't expressed myself very well but I hope you can see what I am trying to say...
 
Your Bonnie is a gorgeous piggy! Such a little fighter too. When you mention her grinding her teeth, could this be because they are too long? My piggy Poppet has had ongoing dental problems since June last year and has been getting her teeth done little and often as this seems to work best for her and causes very little stress. I always know when her teeth are getting a bit too long though because she starts to grind them.

My vet has been absolutely fantastic and I wouldn't consider taking her anywhere else.
 
A Good Point

When referring to left and right side it is convention to refer to the l and r of the animal NOT the l and r on the photo. Failure to adhere to this can lead to unfortunate operative mistakes!

Your pig is a long way from needing to be killed. Please refer to my previous post about chronic abscesses. It would seem more likely than not that the infection was triggered either by one of the teeth being split vertically down the root and/or soft tissue damage. Continue to be wary of professional advice!
PLEASE DO NOT get involved with further complex surgery, whatever that is, on the teeth.
I have more fear for your pig from being treated as opposed to not being treated.
I can only repeat my advice to contact the CCT.

Thank you for the timely reminder about the convention on left / right. I'll bear this in mind in future.

I shall also take your comments about treatment options into consideration. Thank you for those. I will do some research on this, following your suggestions. And will discuss this with my vets.

However, as I live on Tyneside, I am not sure that CCT is a practical option. They may be a source of excellent advice, and I shall certainly seek their advice, but they cannot treat my pig. Let me explain. I am a post-graduate student with very limited income (from part-time work). Treatment for Bonnie to date has cost £147. I don't have a car. Travelling return to Cambridge by train would cost £hundreds. I simply cannot afford it. I love Bonnie but I cannot conjure money from thin air. I have to do the best I can, within the constraints of income and opportunity, and that means working cooperatively with the vets in my area.
 
That wound still looks quite sore, poor thing. She's certainly been in the wars. My piggie is to grind her teeth when she was unwell. I don't feel experienced enough to comment on when would be the best time to have any further treatment on her teeth and I don't want to give you any misleading info. Hope things sort themselves out soon :)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top