Hi. I have just introduced a pair of young sows to an established pair of sows. I have an Eglu, a tunnel and an outdoor run. They are getting on fine in the run. One of the established sows chases the new ones occasionally but otherwise there is harmony. I have so far not left them out in the Eglu together overnight, as I am concerned the dominant sow may intimidate the new ones in a confined space. I have a temporary hutch in the kitchen but hope they will all end up in the Eglu. What do you think?
Advice re bonding please
- Thread starter Biscuit62
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Welcome to the Forum.
it is lovely to have you and your piggies join us.
Sadly I don't think the Eglu offers enough floor space for 2 piggies, never mind 4, so you are right to be concerned.
I would start by making sure that any new space that they will live in together is the correct size for 4 guinea pigs.
Please remember the outside space/runs, etc do not count as space as at this time of year they will not have access to this 24/7.
Cage Size Guide
It is also good to remember that bonding is really an 'all or nothing' event, so once they are together and bonded they should be left together. Every separation and new introduction starts the whole bonding process again from scratch.
You might want to take a look at our bonding guides here:
Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics
it is lovely to have you and your piggies join us.
Sadly I don't think the Eglu offers enough floor space for 2 piggies, never mind 4, so you are right to be concerned.
I would start by making sure that any new space that they will live in together is the correct size for 4 guinea pigs.
Please remember the outside space/runs, etc do not count as space as at this time of year they will not have access to this 24/7.
Cage Size Guide
It is also good to remember that bonding is really an 'all or nothing' event, so once they are together and bonded they should be left together. Every separation and new introduction starts the whole bonding process again from scratch.
You might want to take a look at our bonding guides here:
Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics
Sorry, lots of questions to start!
How long have they been together?
Did you bond them in neutral territory?
Are the new sows used to being outside? If not, then it’s too cold at this time of year for them to be put outside.
Equally, where do your original pair live? Inside or outside?
You say you’ve not left them out overnight, I assume you are bringing them into the temporary hutch inside overnight?
Does this mean you are bringing all four of them into the temporary hutch together or are you bringing in the new two and leaving the original two out?
If you are leaving two in and two out, then the bonding would have been interrupted every time you separate them.
An Eglu plastic house (if it’s what I have in my mind) is unfortunately, not suitable permanent accommodation for any piggies. Four piggies require a minimum of a 6 foot hutch to live in, plus additional run space which can be used when supervised (only during the warmer months).
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Just to give you an example, the bare minimum for 4 females would be something with 180cm x 60cm unbroken floor space which they have unlimited access to 24/7.
That means you need something like this (which barley meets the requirement, but could work with 4 well bonded sows).
6ft Chartwell Double Guinea Pig Hutch | Free Shipping
The Eglu sadly has well under half this space with the internal area being only 70cm x 70cm, which technically isn't even enough space for 2 guinea pigs.
This is in no way your fault as their website makes some rather misleading claims about how many pigs it can house, and they cleverly only give external dimensions which are reduced by 10cm on the inside due to the thick, plastic walls.
That means you need something like this (which barley meets the requirement, but could work with 4 well bonded sows).
6ft Chartwell Double Guinea Pig Hutch | Free Shipping
The Eglu sadly has well under half this space with the internal area being only 70cm x 70cm, which technically isn't even enough space for 2 guinea pigs.
This is in no way your fault as their website makes some rather misleading claims about how many pigs it can house, and they cleverly only give external dimensions which are reduced by 10cm on the inside due to the thick, plastic walls.
Hi Both,
Thanks for your answers. To answer your questions. the 2 established sows (Ruffnut and Tuffnut) have been living in the Eglu for about 2 years - all their life. (We have kept a succession of guinea pigs in pairs in the Eglu over the last 10 years or so - they have all been fine - I am interested by your point about the insufficient space in a Eglu - I didn't know that). We got 2 new guinea pigs (Treacle and Fudge) last Autumn. They were very small and as it was Winter I thought I would wait till Spring before working on getting them to live outdoors. They have been living in a hutch indoors and going out on good weather days to the outside run, which was divided with a mesh so the 2 pairs could see each other. Last week, as the weather improved, in preparation for introducing the new pigs outside, I moved the established pigs indoors and the new pigs outdoors, to reduce the feeling of the Eglu being the established pigs' territory. Then, on Monday this week, I put all four on the bathroom floor for the day, to meet each other. That went well. On Tuesday, I removed the divide in the outside run so they could mingle. That also went well. One of the established sows, Ruffnut, chased the new ones a bit, but they mostly settled down to being around each other, as long as they were free to move between outside run, tunnel and Eglu. In the evening, however, when I shut the tunnel so they were all in the area in front of the Eglu, Ruffnut and Tuffnut intimidated Treacle and Fudge, so they were cowering in the corner. So, I took Ruffnut and Tuffnut out and put them in the hutch in the kitchen. I thought that way the new ones would get a chance to feel settled in the Eglu. I have attached some photos so you can see the arrangement. In the photos, Ruffnut and Tuffnut are in front of the Eglu; Treacle and Fudge are in the run. So, what should I do now? From what you say, the Eglu can't accommodate 4, even if they get on very well. I can see that you are not keen on Eglu's , but I now have the tunnel and run system that work with them. Shall I get a second Eglu with a tunnel linking them? I would be grateful for your advice. Best wishes,
Thanks for your answers. To answer your questions. the 2 established sows (Ruffnut and Tuffnut) have been living in the Eglu for about 2 years - all their life. (We have kept a succession of guinea pigs in pairs in the Eglu over the last 10 years or so - they have all been fine - I am interested by your point about the insufficient space in a Eglu - I didn't know that). We got 2 new guinea pigs (Treacle and Fudge) last Autumn. They were very small and as it was Winter I thought I would wait till Spring before working on getting them to live outdoors. They have been living in a hutch indoors and going out on good weather days to the outside run, which was divided with a mesh so the 2 pairs could see each other. Last week, as the weather improved, in preparation for introducing the new pigs outside, I moved the established pigs indoors and the new pigs outdoors, to reduce the feeling of the Eglu being the established pigs' territory. Then, on Monday this week, I put all four on the bathroom floor for the day, to meet each other. That went well. On Tuesday, I removed the divide in the outside run so they could mingle. That also went well. One of the established sows, Ruffnut, chased the new ones a bit, but they mostly settled down to being around each other, as long as they were free to move between outside run, tunnel and Eglu. In the evening, however, when I shut the tunnel so they were all in the area in front of the Eglu, Ruffnut and Tuffnut intimidated Treacle and Fudge, so they were cowering in the corner. So, I took Ruffnut and Tuffnut out and put them in the hutch in the kitchen. I thought that way the new ones would get a chance to feel settled in the Eglu. I have attached some photos so you can see the arrangement. In the photos, Ruffnut and Tuffnut are in front of the Eglu; Treacle and Fudge are in the run. So, what should I do now? From what you say, the Eglu can't accommodate 4, even if they get on very well. I can see that you are not keen on Eglu's , but I now have the tunnel and run system that work with them. Shall I get a second Eglu with a tunnel linking them? I would be grateful for your advice. Best wishes,
Attachments
It’s not about being setled in the location, it’s about establishing a working hierarchy between all four of them. As you have put them together and then separated them, then their bonding has been interrupted and you will need to go back to a neutral territory introduction for them to start again and ensure they are not separated after the introduction.
Establishing a relationship is only done through being put in neural territory for introduction for several hours and then moved together to the cage they are to live in (if that cage is one the original piggies lived in then that cage needs to have been thoroughly cleaned to remove all scents of the original piggies and rearranged so they can no longer recognise it as their territory) and left together permanently (no separations should occur following the initial introduction unless the bonding clearly fails). It will then take two weeks of being permanently together for them to fully establish their relationship.
However, having a suitable and large enough living space is important before bonding into a quartet.
Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics
Piggies who have been indoors in winter need to be kept inside until about April/May time, when night times are considerably warmer. Even then they need to be introduced to outside slowly and still not left outside probably for several weeks after they start to get outside time during the day.
Eglu aren’t suitable and, I believe, are rejected by a lot of UK rescue centres due to the fact the enclosed area does not meet minimum sizing for two piggies. The run in front of the plastic house does not form their living space given it isn’t suitable for them to be left in overnight
They need to have an enclosed 6ft hutch (given that is the largest commercially available, but a 7ft hutch would be better but that would need to be custom made) on a single level (like the one Swissgreys linked in) to live in. The Eglu run system can be used for during the day playtime during the warmer months. They would then need to be removed from the Eglu system and put back into a hutch for night time.
Getting a second eglu will not help given it then doesn’t provide uninterrupted living space and they should not really be outside in that front space at night.
Member Gallery: Hutches
If you have foxes, is having the piggies indoors permanently an option?
How big is the temporary hutch you have inside?
Establishing a relationship is only done through being put in neural territory for introduction for several hours and then moved together to the cage they are to live in (if that cage is one the original piggies lived in then that cage needs to have been thoroughly cleaned to remove all scents of the original piggies and rearranged so they can no longer recognise it as their territory) and left together permanently (no separations should occur following the initial introduction unless the bonding clearly fails). It will then take two weeks of being permanently together for them to fully establish their relationship.
However, having a suitable and large enough living space is important before bonding into a quartet.
Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics
Piggies who have been indoors in winter need to be kept inside until about April/May time, when night times are considerably warmer. Even then they need to be introduced to outside slowly and still not left outside probably for several weeks after they start to get outside time during the day.
Eglu aren’t suitable and, I believe, are rejected by a lot of UK rescue centres due to the fact the enclosed area does not meet minimum sizing for two piggies. The run in front of the plastic house does not form their living space given it isn’t suitable for them to be left in overnight
They need to have an enclosed 6ft hutch (given that is the largest commercially available, but a 7ft hutch would be better but that would need to be custom made) on a single level (like the one Swissgreys linked in) to live in. The Eglu run system can be used for during the day playtime during the warmer months. They would then need to be removed from the Eglu system and put back into a hutch for night time.
Getting a second eglu will not help given it then doesn’t provide uninterrupted living space and they should not really be outside in that front space at night.
Member Gallery: Hutches
If you have foxes, is having the piggies indoors permanently an option?
How big is the temporary hutch you have inside?
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Right now, by constantly switching the pairs around you aren't creating a bond between the girls.
The first step is to sort out a suitable place for them to live, and currently the Eglu doesn't offer space that meets the minimum welfare standards for 2 guinea pigs, so clearly won't work for 4, and has a very high chance of ending badly with a serious fight. There is simply no space for them to escape from each other and use their 'flight' instinct if there is a disagreement.
The reason we don't seem keen on the Eglu is it simply doesn't offer an appropriate amount of space. I understand it has worked for you for the past 2 years, but it would be irresponsible of us to say it is appropriate as full time accommodation. We try to make owners aware of the minimum welfare standards in the hopes they will take this message on board. However at the end of the day it is up to you.
Ironically another Eglu would cost more than an appropriate sized wooden hutch with covers! If you are prepared to spend the money on an Eglu you would be far better off investing in a decent hutch which will offer your girls the chance to live as a group of 4 with a space for everyone.
Additionally a 2 story hutch will also give you another option if they should ever fall out as you can have 1 pair on each floor.
A well made wooden hutch can also be made fox proof - my rabbits live out year round in a wooden hutch, and we regularly see foxes in our garden.
If you decide to go that route please let us know and you will receive plenty of ideas and support.
Thanks. Please can you recommend an appropriate 2 storey fox proof hutch? Thanks.
Right now, by constantly switching the pairs around you aren't creating a bond between the girls.
The first step is to sort out a suitable place for them to live, and currently the Eglu doesn't offer space that meets the minimum welfare standards for 2 guinea pigs, so clearly won't work for 4, and has a very high chance of ending badly with a serious fight. There is simply no space for them to escape from each other and use their 'flight' instinct if there is a disagreement.
The reason we don't seem keen on the Eglu is it simply doesn't offer an appropriate amount of space. I understand it has worked for you for the past 2 years, but it would be irresponsible of us to say it is appropriate as full time accommodation. We try to make owners aware of the minimum welfare standards in the hopes they will take this message on board. However at the end of the day it is up to you.
Ironically another Eglu would cost more than an appropriate sized wooden hutch with covers! If you are prepared to spend the money on an Eglu you would be far better off investing in a decent hutch which will offer your girls the chance to live as a group of 4 with a space for everyone.
Additionally a 2 story hutch will also give you another option if they should ever fall out as you can have 1 pair on each floor.
A well made wooden hutch can also be made fox proof - my rabbits live out year round in a wooden hutch, and we regularly see foxes in our garden.
If you decide to go that route please let us know and you will receive plenty of ideas and support.
The hutch will need to sit close to the ground so I can attach the tunnel and run. Thanks.
Right now, by constantly switching the pairs around you aren't creating a bond between the girls.
The first step is to sort out a suitable place for them to live, and currently the Eglu doesn't offer space that meets the minimum welfare standards for 2 guinea pigs, so clearly won't work for 4, and has a very high chance of ending badly with a serious fight. There is simply no space for them to escape from each other and use their 'flight' instinct if there is a disagreement.
The reason we don't seem keen on the Eglu is it simply doesn't offer an appropriate amount of space. I understand it has worked for you for the past 2 years, but it would be irresponsible of us to say it is appropriate as full time accommodation. We try to make owners aware of the minimum welfare standards in the hopes they will take this message on board. However at the end of the day it is up to you.
Ironically another Eglu would cost more than an appropriate sized wooden hutch with covers! If you are prepared to spend the money on an Eglu you would be far better off investing in a decent hutch which will offer your girls the chance to live as a group of 4 with a space for everyone.
Additionally a 2 story hutch will also give you another option if they should ever fall out as you can have 1 pair on each floor.
A well made wooden hutch can also be made fox proof - my rabbits live out year round in a wooden hutch, and we regularly see foxes in our garden.
If you decide to go that route please let us know and you will receive plenty of ideas and support.
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Be aware of foxes digging if an on ground hutch.
This website is recommended for good hutches.
They are ply backed so need protecting and of course for outdoor piggies you will also need the thermal and waterproof hutch covers (regardless of where you get the hutch from)
Home & Roost | Single & Double Tier 6ft Guinea Pig Hutches
You will probably need to add additional bolts yourself to make it fox proof.
The alternative is Ryedale hutches. They are custom made so are more expensive but the benefit is that you will be able to get 7ft hutch which is better for four piggies (6ft is fine though as it is minimum size needed for four piggies) they are better quality, and can be made fox proof.
Rabbit Hutches - Guinea Pig Hutches - Ryedale Pet Homes
However, as you do have foxes, and you can do things to make it more secure, the risk cannot be totally removed unless your piggies live indoors
They are ply backed so need protecting and of course for outdoor piggies you will also need the thermal and waterproof hutch covers (regardless of where you get the hutch from)
Home & Roost | Single & Double Tier 6ft Guinea Pig Hutches
You will probably need to add additional bolts yourself to make it fox proof.
The alternative is Ryedale hutches. They are custom made so are more expensive but the benefit is that you will be able to get 7ft hutch which is better for four piggies (6ft is fine though as it is minimum size needed for four piggies) they are better quality, and can be made fox proof.
Rabbit Hutches - Guinea Pig Hutches - Ryedale Pet Homes
However, as you do have foxes, and you can do things to make it more secure, the risk cannot be totally removed unless your piggies live indoors
Yes I am thanks. I dug down into the garden and laid chicken wire under the Eglu and run, and attached this to the sides of the run.
There are some good tips here:
Foxes Rabbits And Your Garden | Your Guide To Fox Proof Rabbit Hutches
Foxes Rabbits And Your Garden | Your Guide To Fox Proof Rabbit Hutches