Advice on possible UTI

[Britt]

Hi Everyone,

I’m looking for some advice about a possible UTI in one of my 5 year old Boars.

I had him into the vets 2 days ago after I noticed a small amount of blood in his urine and that he was squeaking when he pees. The vet looked him over and gave him a 10 day course of baytril (0.6ml x2 a day) for a suspected UTI. My worry is that I know bladder stones and UTIs show similar symptoms. The vet expressed that he thought it was a UTI rather than stones as he couldn’t feel any inflammation but no X-rays were done to confirm. I have spoken to my vet about doing possible X-rays on another pig in the past and he said that he has never got any useful information from conscious X-rays on a guinea pig and always puts them under for them. So I knew this would be the case again this time. They said they would do X-rays if I really wanted but expressed the risks involved in putting them under.

I really just want some advice on what to do in this situation. He is booked in for an X-ray on Thursday but I’m not sure if I should push for them to be done earlier? Or should I be doing them at all with the risks involved? He’s only on day 3 of his course of antibiotics which I feel like is too early to tell if they’re working (please correct me if I’m wrong there) but I would hate to continue them and have him deteriorate if he actually does have stones rather than a UTI. I’ve also read a few things about getting his urine tested? Can anyone shed some light on this for me? I’m just a bit stressed out with what to do as I’ve had to pts 5 pigs already this year and I’m really not ready to have to do that again so soon. I just want to make sure I’m making the right decision.

Any advice is much appreciated, thanks.

 

[Siikibam]

I’m sorry your boy is unwell. I’ve no advice but would keep the Thursday appointment. I’ll tag @Piggies&buns @VickiA

 

[Scooter Pie]

To me, starting abx and the upcoming xray appointment sounds totally reasonable. The only thing I might add is asking about some pain meds too

Good luck! I have a UTI/possible IC piggie. Seeing blood and hearing that squeaking is such a bummer. She's also turning 5 and is on two meds for life to prevent stones.

If you have Oxbow joint support treats in your area, you might want to try them. Not only for the older pig's joints, but the glucosamine in them protects the bladder from irritation.

 

[Britt]

I’m sorry your boy is unwell. I’ve no advice but would keep the Thursday appointment. I’ll tag @Piggies&buns @VickiA

Thanks. I’m definitely keeping the Thursday appt, just really wanted some reassurance that I was doing the right thing. I’ve had some pretty awful experiences this year that have unfortunately made me extra paranoid!

 

[Britt]

To me, starting abx and the upcoming xray appointment sounds totally reasonable. The only thing I might add is asking about some pain meds too

Good luck! I have a UTI/possible IC piggie. Seeing blood and hearing that squeaking is such a bummer. She's also turning 5 and is on two meds for life to prevent stones.

If you have Oxbow joint support treats in your area, you might want to try them. Not only for the older pig's joints, but the glucosamine in them protects the bladder from irritation.

Thanks for the reassurance. He’s already on long term pain relief for arthritis so that’s sorted. I’ve tried oxbow treats (both normal and the supplement kind) on all of my pigs before and none of them will touch them but might have a go at them again.

Sorry to hear about your girl, it really is hard seeing them struggle!

 

[Free Ranger]

I've had both UTI and stones in my piggies and the pain/inflammation that alerted me to their situation has always been a result of bacterial infection. I think the presence of stones makes the UTI more likely but antibiotics have always been needed. However, we've had one or two UTIs where Baytril just hasn't cut it so we've been prescribed something else (and actually for nearly three weeks!) so if it's been 3 full days and you're seeing no improvement you might need an alternative antibiotic. Usually you would see the difference sometime between 1 and 3 days. For me it's usually been after about 24-48 hours that things start to calm down and the leaking urine stops so the tummy feels dryer. Did they check his urine for the presence of bacteria? And did you get painkiller (twice a day?) My vet - a general vet - has said in the past that Baytril resistance is increasing because it has been the go-to antibiotic for piggies for so long.

Has you boy shown any signs of calcium sludge in his pee? Piggy pee is usually a bit milky but if you have seen hard, gritty sludge or crystals this might also be contributing to his pain when peeing.

If you do go ahead with the x-ray have a think about what the possible results might be:

If there is no stone and he's still in pain when he pees I would (from my previous experience) think about a secondary antibiotic... but if Mon/Tue are day 4/5 of the course and there's no difference in his symptoms I personally would be tempted to call the vet and ask about a different antibiotic anyway. You might even be able to discuss this over the phone rather than take him in (I don't know which bit of Scotland you are in... one of the cities or a more sparsely populated area with no vets nearby!) and you might find that this sorts him out - x-ray aside.

If there is a stone you will still have the problem of sorting out his symptoms so you may well end up on a secondary antibiotic whatever. And just as an extra bit of confusion I once had a sow who was x-rayed and the vet was pointing out this 'stone' sitting in the exit of the bladder (top of the urethra) and I said "could that just be an accumulation of grit or slurry?" and she said "well, yes it could" so it was not very conclusive anyway. That girl had treatment to enable her to pass her stone/slurry so it worked out OK but she was the one who ended up on the antibiotic for nearly three weeks then the infection came back 2 weeks later and so she had to have a repeat course for another few weeks and I was in pieces by then but she came through it all and the vet didn't seem at all surprised that the infection had been so hard to shift!

Boars will struggle to pass any stone on their own. If he has one I'm afraid there will be some more difficult choices ahead for you to make. But your immediate priority, I think, is whether his symptoms have improved at all, or whether you need to ask about a different antibiotic tomorrow. Good luck x

 

[Britt]

I've had both UTI and stones in my piggies and the pain/inflammation that alerted me to their situation has always been a result of bacterial infection. I think the presence of stones makes the UTI more likely but antibiotics have always been needed. However, we've had one or two UTIs where Baytril just hasn't cut it so we've been prescribed something else (and actually for nearly three weeks!) so if it's been 3 full days and you're seeing no improvement you might need an alternative antibiotic. Usually you would see the difference sometime between 1 and 3 days. For me it's usually been after about 24-48 hours that things start to calm down and the leaking urine stops so the tummy feels dryer. Did they check his urine for the presence of bacteria? And did you get painkiller (twice a day?) My vet - a general vet - has said in the past that Baytril resistance is increasing because it has been the go-to antibiotic for piggies for so long.

Has you boy shown any signs of calcium sludge in his pee? Piggy pee is usually a bit milky but if you have seen hard, gritty sludge or crystals this might also be contributing to his pain when peeing.

If you do go ahead with the x-ray have a think about what the possible results might be:

If there is no stone and he's still in pain when he pees I would (from my previous experience) think about a secondary antibiotic... but if Mon/Tue are day 4/5 of the course and there's no difference in his symptoms I personally would be tempted to call the vet and ask about a different antibiotic anyway. You might even be able to discuss this over the phone rather than take him in (I don't know which bit of Scotland you are in... one of the cities or a more sparsely populated area with no vets nearby!) and you might find that this sorts him out - x-ray aside.

If there is a stone you will still have the problem of sorting out his symptoms so you may well end up on a secondary antibiotic whatever. And just as an extra bit of confusion I once had a sow who was x-rayed and the vet was pointing out this 'stone' sitting in the exit of the bladder (top of the urethra) and I said "could that just be an accumulation of grit or slurry?" and she said "well, yes it could" so it was not very conclusive anyway. That girl had treatment to enable her to pass her stone/slurry so it worked out OK but she was the one who ended up on the antibiotic for nearly three weeks then the infection came back 2 weeks later and so she had to have a repeat course for another few weeks and I was in pieces by then but she came through it all and the vet didn't seem at all surprised that the infection had been so hard to shift!

Boars will struggle to pass any stone on their own. If he has one I'm afraid there will be some more difficult choices ahead for you to make. But your immediate priority, I think, is whether his symptoms have improved at all, or whether you need to ask about a different antibiotic tomorrow. Good luck x

I’ve read quite a few stories from people where they’ve said Baytril hasn’t worked, so it’s definitely something I will bring up with my vet as he still has blood in his pee. I have managed to get an appointment with him tomorrow morning so I’m hoping to get some more insight from him (the vet I saw on Friday is different from my usual vet who’s an exotics specialist) He’s already on loxicom for his arthritis, he gets this just once a day as my vet does not advise splitting doses in half. But it is very clear that my boy is still uncomfortable so I am going to ask for some additional pain relief.

Thanks for your help x

 

[Free Ranger]

We've recently had some grumbles about the amount of loxicom prescribed since the 'cat strength' 0.5mg/ml was licensed for piggies a couple of years ago. Before then our vet routinely prescribed the stronger 'dog strength' 1.5mg/ml one and the dose was always twice a day but now we get prescribed much lower doses of cat strength and only once per day which is very irritating - esp when it's the same vet prescribing! I feel like I'm trying to haggle! You are right not to split the prescribed dose though. My girl with the eating (poss dental) problems is 1 kilo and has now been offered 0.2 ml twice a day of cat strength. For an eye injury a few weeks back she got 0.1ml once per day and after a very annoyed phone call with a senior vet I got permission to put it up to 0.2ml once per day. My previous sow with the protracted bladder issues (she passed a stone and got that uti) started on 0.23ml dog strength twice a day (slightly heavier girl at 1.2kilo) which then got almost doubled (also twice per day with no ill effects). But that was before anything was piggy-approved and it seems licensing has knocked the doses right down. If your vet has been around a few years he'll probably know about all this and will be able to tell you himself whether he prescribes lower doses these days and whether he could be persuaded to up it for an older boy. One of my vets had a very elderly boar with a stone who would not have survived surgery so he was living out his days on painkillers till it was his time. She knew how much he could manage from personal experience x

I wish I could remember what the other antibiotic was called... might have been Septrin but my memory fails me today. It's probably in an old post somewhere - but the vet will have a back-up AB in mind anyway I should think. You can press for more info about increasing his painkiller - if it hurts to pee they try and hold it in when ideally they should flush it all out! I'm so sorry for you and your boy - it is awful to hear them squeak Lets hope they offer an alternative AB and it kicks in fast.

PS: maybe think about adding in a probiotic if you're chucking the kitchen sink at it? Check with vet.

 

[Britt]

We've recently had some grumbles about the amount of loxicom prescribed since the 'cat strength' 0.5mg/ml was licensed for piggies a couple of years ago. Before then our vet routinely prescribed the stronger 'dog strength' 1.5mg/ml one and the dose was always twice a day but now we get prescribed much lower doses of cat strength and only once per day which is very irritating - esp when it's the same vet prescribing! I feel like I'm trying to haggle! You are right not to split the prescribed dose though. My girl with the eating (poss dental) problems is 1 kilo and has now been offered 0.2 ml twice a day of cat strength. For an eye injury a few weeks back she got 0.1ml once per day and after a very annoyed phone call with a senior vet I got permission to put it up to 0.2ml once per day. My previous sow with the protracted bladder issues (she passed a stone and got that uti) started on 0.23ml dog strength twice a day (slightly heavier girl at 1.2kilo) which then got almost doubled (also twice per day with no ill effects). But that was before anything was piggy-approved and it seems licensing has knocked the doses right down. If your vet has been around a few years he'll probably know about all this and will be able to tell you himself whether he prescribes lower doses these days and whether he could be persuaded to up it for an older boy. One of my vets had a very elderly boar with a stone who would not have survived surgery so he was living out his days on painkillers till it was his time. She knew how much he could manage from personal experience x

I wish I could remember what the other antibiotic was called... might have been Septrin but my memory fails me today. It's probably in an old post somewhere - but the vet will have a back-up AB in mind anyway I should think. You can press for more info about increasing his painkiller - if it hurts to pee they try and hold it in when ideally they should flush it all out! I'm so sorry for you and your boy - it is awful to hear them squeak Lets hope they offer an alternative AB and it kicks in fast.

PS: maybe think about adding in a probiotic if you're chucking the kitchen sink at it? Check with vet.

My boy is currently on 0.7ml daily of cat loxicom so I’m not concerned about dosage there. Spoke with my vet yesterday and he said his max dose would be 1ml a day but doesn’t really want him on that. We decided we would just keep and eye on him and if we thought he needed a wee boost of pain relief we would give him it, but wouldn’t make it a reoccurring thing unless we thought it was necessary. Antibiotics wise, my vet advised we stick with baytril. He expressed it was a really good antibiotic and if my boy was resistant to it, he would be resistant to pretty much every other alternative. When septrin was mentioned he explained that it is not effective in treating UTIs as it doesn’t work against the bacteria that would cause a UTI. So I’m sticking with that advice for now. My vet agreed to do conscious X-rays, which apparently he sat very well for! No obvious stones showed up, which is reassuring, but I realise that there is a possibility of some smaller ones still being present.

He’s still booked in on Thursday for further investigation if we don’t see any improvement by then. My vet said he’s a very good candidate for going under to do further X-rays, blood tests etc. as he’s still in good health so hopefully by the end of the week we will have some more definite answers!

 

[Free Ranger]

That's good he's taking his pain seriously. And it's great he didn't have any obvious stones.

When we've had Baytril in the past we've had lower doses prescribed for 10 days then a much higher dose for 5 days for a different pig. I was so surprised I asked if I'd made a mistake but that particular vet apparently always blitzed with Baytril so she could see whether there was resistance or not! I looked up the other AB we had that time and it was Septrin. We had seen no difference on Baytril so after 5 days she was switched to Septrin for 2 1/2 weeks. I started to see the difference after about 2 days but we still had to complete the whole course. Then 2 weeks later her symptoms came back and I was gutted. We repeated the Septrin and that got it for good. The thing is, my vet wasn't even surprised... she said she'd seen this sort of thing before and just took the return of the infection in her stride. Perhaps it was because my little sow had had stone trouble before that the infection hung on, I don't know. Good luck with your next appointment!