Advice for teeth/spinal pain?

[fournakedpigs]

Apologies in advance if this is long. I just need advice, and I’m hoping any of these vets just missed something obvious. I’m utterly devastated for my boy.

Moe is a sweet 1.8 year-old skinny pig who was left in a pet store for 8 months and was bullied by other boys and then housed alone. Since he’s been with us for a year, he’s had tons of medical problems. His most ongoing issue is that he tends to sit hunched 99% of the time and then began crying while bending to eat his cecal pellets. Crying is no longer a problem, but his posture has not changed.

We’ve done pretty much every diagnostic we can think of (multiple xrays, bloodwork, fecal, urinalysis) and everything comes back in great condition. Because of that, he now gets treatment with laser therapy once a month and is on daily metacam because even though we couldn’t figure out where the pain is coming from, it’s clearly there. Metacam has been helping for 6 months.

As of yesterday, he stopped pooping. (Only produced about 30 all day). Thought it was stasis, took the usual steps. Before taking him in to the vet this morning, I realized I think it’s his teeth/mouth because he’s picking up hay, dropping it, picking it up again, etc., so he’s not pooping as he’s not eating as much.

Anyway, we’re at the vet now, and he’s finally started pooping normally thanks to all the CC we pushed yesterday. However, the vet agrees he has some mouth pain somewhere even though his front incisors look good. His lymph nodes are swollen, and she’s having trouble seeing his back molars because his mouth is full of food. (I’m guessing he’s ravenous because his metacam kicked in, so he’s now comfy enough to eat.)

The vet threw out possibilities of bone cancer, simply because of his posture and history with back pain, in addition to this instance. We’re obviously in the parking lot distraught and trying to triage all of this. We’re currently running bloodwork because we did an X-ray about a month ago, so we’re hoping bloodwork will tell us something new. The vet agrees poor Moe had a bad start to life and likely has bad genetics that are working against him, but we are going to fight for answers for our baby no matter what. The vet has already said if the xrays and bloodwork don’t give us answers that the next step could be a CT scan.

Are there ANY suggestions? Anything someone may not have thought of on our end? (Our regular vet and emergency vet are exotic vets, but still, you never know.)

We also follow all husbandry guidelines and standards for our boys, so there’s no worry about lack of access to hay, water, or space. He is also housed next to a pal, but not within the same cage, so there’s no guarding of resources going on.

Here is our darling Moe.

 

[Wiebke]

Hi and welcome

I am very sorry for your boy. Unfortunately, I don't have a snap yor finger idea as to what could be going on as I am sure that your vets have also checked the organs that are sitting high up in the body (especially the kidneys, too). We are seeing more cases of osteodystrophy in piggies that are not satins but I am not sure whether that is an option in your piggy.

If the front teet (which to the picking up and cutting of food) are slanted, jagged or no longer self-sharpening against each other and pointing inwards, then it points very often to either problem with the incisor roots (which are actually sitting right in front of the grinding premolar and molar teeth at the back. Slanted incisors usually mean that your piggy is chewing more or mostly on side to a pain issue there (often a brewing root abscess); a jagged edge to the front teeth generally means irregular chewing at the back (could be misalignment, bone pain etc). Overgrown front teeth that no longer meet mean that the premolars have grown spurs that bridge over the tongue and trap it and make chewing very difficult or more rarely that a spur has grown into the cheek. The other molars will follow with overgrowing, the lesser your piggy is chewing and eventually the jaw can dislocate.
The dental system and in guinea pigs has evolved against the very abrasive silica in grass/hay, which is their dietary mainstay. They have one of the fastest growing teeth in all rodents, together with their larger cousins, the capybaras.
@furryfriends (TEAS)

I am keeping my fingers crossed for your little one!

 

[fournakedpigs]

Hi and welcome

I am very sorry for your boy. Unfortunately, I don't have a snap yor finger idea as to what could be going on as I am sure that your vets have also checked the organs that are sitting high up in the body (especially the kidneys, too). We are seeing more cases of osteodystrophy in piggies that are not satins but I am not sure whether that is an option in your piggy.

If the front teet (which to the picking up and cutting of food) are slanted, jagged or no longer self-sharpening against each other and pointing inwards, then it points very often to either problem with the incisor roots (which are actually sitting right in front of the grinding premolar and molar teeth at the back. Slanted incisors usually mean that your piggy is chewing more or mostly on side to a pain issue there (often a brewing root abscess); a jagged edge to the front teeth generally means irregular chewing at the back (could be misalignment, bone pain etc). Overgrown front teeth that no longer meet mean that the premolars have grown spurs that bridge over the tongue and trap it and make chewing very difficult or more rarely that a spur has grown into the cheek. The other molars will follow with overgrowing, the lesser your piggy is chewing and eventually the jaw can dislocate.
The dental system and in guinea pigs has evolved against the very abrasive silica in grass/hay, which is their dietary mainstay. They have one of the fastest growing teeth in all rodents, together with their larger cousins, the capybaras.
@furryfriends (TEAS)

I am keeping my fingers crossed for your little one!

Thank you so much for your reply! We actually just got a call from them with bloodwork results, and everything looks pretty good, including kidney levels. As for osteodystrophy, is that something that would show up on xrays? Or in bloodwork? Or how should I go about looking into this further for him?

She wants to put him on gabapentin for pain right now, in addition to the metacam because gaba is less harsh on the kidneys and other organs long-term. (I know this is true for dogs, as my beloved late 19-yo pup was on it.) Just double checking that this is safe for guinea pigs?

We’re going to take him home now, as he and we have been here for 7 hours, and he’s currently eating and pooping, though something is obviously still wrong with his mouth/jaw. We will be back on Monday for more diagnostics, so we just have to keep him eating and pooping through one more day, which she thinks will be doable with the new pain med on board.

My heart is just breaking for my poor boy who is the sweetest, most loving boy who deserves no pain. The vet said he’s just back there, happy as a clam, munching away on hay.

 

[Wiebke]

Thank you so much for your reply! We actually just got a call from them with bloodwork results, and everything looks pretty good, including kidney levels. As for osteodystrophy, is that something that would show up on xrays? Or in bloodwork? Or how should I go about looking into this further for him?

She wants to put him on gabapentin for pain right now, in addition to the metacam because gaba is less harsh on the kidneys and other organs long-term. (I know this is true for dogs, as my beloved late 19-yo pup was on it.) Just double checking that this is safe for guinea pigs?

We’re going to take him home now, as he and we have been here for 7 hours, and he’s currently eating and pooping, though something is obviously still wrong with his mouth/jaw. We will be back on Monday for more diagnostics, so we just have to keep him eating and pooping through one more day, which she thinks will be doable with the new pain med on board.

My heart is just breaking for my poor boy who is the sweetest, most loving boy who deserves no pain. The vet said he’s just back there, happy as a clam, munching away on hay.

Gabapentin is best for spine or neurological issues and is now also used for guinea pigs.

You can find information in fibrous osteodystrophy/'satin disease' (with some further links) in the satin chapter in our breeds guide. It normally shows up in x-rays and in guinea pigs sleeping one their side with their feet in the air and not sprawled on the floor - it is a very distinctive pose to take the pain off.
https://www.theguineapigforum.co.uk...gs-picture-guide-to-common-pet-breeds.121399/

 

[fournakedpigs]

Gabapentin is best for spine or neurological issues and is now also used for guinea pigs.

You can find information in fibrous osteodystrophy/'satin disease' (with some further links) in the satin chapter in our breeds guide. It normally shows up in x-rays and in guinea pigs sleeping one their side with their feet in the air and not sprawled on the floor - it is a very distinctive pose to take the pain off.
https://www.theguineapigforum.co.uk...gs-picture-guide-to-common-pet-breeds.121399/

Okay, thanks so much! I’m glad we’ve been switched to Gaba, then.

I’ll look into it, although that does not sound like how Moe sleeps/rests. But I still want to look into it as an option.

 

[fournakedpigs]

Gabapentin is best for spine or neurological issues and is now also used for guinea pigs.

You can find information in fibrous osteodystrophy/'satin disease' (with some further links) in the satin chapter in our breeds guide. It normally shows up in x-rays and in guinea pigs sleeping one their side with their feet in the air and not sprawled on the floor - it is a very distinctive pose to take the pain off.
https://www.theguineapigforum.co.uk...gs-picture-guide-to-common-pet-breeds.121399/

Wow. On skimming some of these links, I’m already seeing some of Moe’s symptoms on here. Obviously it could be a one-off thing, but I’m going to go read everything in full detail. Is it possible for skinny pigs to be satin?

 

[Wiebke]

Wow. On skimming some of these links, I’m already seeing some of Moe’s symptoms on here. Obviously it could be a one-off thing, but I’m going to go read everything in full detail. Is it possible for skinny pigs to be satin?

Fibrous osteodystrophy is increasingly turning up in other breeds than satins (I have seen several OD piggies in rescue that were not satin diagnosed with it in recent years). This is most likely due to the current indiscriminate breeding that has taken over for both pet shops and for sale breeders.

The faulty satin gene can jump generations and has turned up in the off-spring of non-satins for instance and also in non-satin piggies. I haven't heard of a skinny having it so far but it all depends on what gene mix has gone into yours. It would not surprise me though!

If your poor piggy is showing several symptoms, then it is most certainly worth pursuing this further with your vet. I would be extremely sorry if it turned out to be OD though. It is a nasty uncurable progressive human-made disease that affects the whole body and not just the bones.

 

[fournakedpigs]

Fibrous osteodystrophy is increasingly turning up in other breeds than satins (I have seen several OD piggies in rescue that were not satin diagnosed with it in recent years). This is most likely due to the current indiscriminate breeding that has taken over for both pet shops and for sale breeders.

The faulty satin gene can jump generations and has turned up in the off-spring of non-satins for instance and also in non-satin piggies. I haven't heard of a skinny having it so far but it all depends on what gene mix has gone into yours. It would not surprise me though!

If your poor piggy is showing several symptoms, then it is most certainly worth pursuing this further with your vet. I would be extremely sorry if it turned out to be OD though. It is a nasty uncurable progressive human-made disease that affects the whole body and not just the bones.

Thank you for these informative responses. They are very much appreciated.

We will be going back to the vet Monday, and I will certainly bring this up. For now, we have a whole medical chart and feeding and activity plan to keep his gut going until then. His pain seems better managed with both gaba and meta on board. If it turns out to be this terrible disease and we cannot keep him comfortable, we will do what’s in his best interest, always, even if it means losing one of my best friends.

However, I hope to have a joyous update on Monday that he has something going on with his teeth. (Still not ideal, but I’ll take it!)

 

[fournakedpigs]

Update: the vet was still unable to get a great look at Moe’s teeth, so we still don’t have a definite answer. We’re going to continue the gabapentin because it’s definitely helping his pain, as evidenced by his general demeanor, willingness to eat, and poop production.

We’ve been referred to an exotic only board-certified surgeon about five hours from us. We’ve submitted all the paperwork and forms to see if Moe is a good candidate to do a CT scan on to get more information on this pain.

Two years ago I would’ve laughed if you told me I’m considering spending that type of money on a guinea pig. Now I’m just like... how many cards can I split this payment across?

 

[Betsy]

Two years ago I would’ve laughed if you told me I’m considering spending that type of money on a guinea pig. Now I’m just like... how many cards can I split this payment across?

But Moe is not "just" a guinea pig he's your guinea pig and a well loved member of your family. You wouldn't bat an eyelid if he were a dog or a cat.

 

[fournakedpigs]

But Moe is not "just" a guinea pig he's your guinea pig and a well loved member of your family. You wouldn't bat an eyelid if he were a dog or a cat.

Definitely! These little piggies have certainly changed my perspective, and I’d do anything in my power to help them. Moe deserves a chance at a pain-free life.

 

[fournakedpigs]

Small update: Moe has been doing really well on Metacam and Gabapentin. However, we did get a referral to an exotics only board-certified surgeon in another state. They’re considering a CT scan or MRI for further diagnostics, which they’ll know more about once they have a full-on physical exam themselves. We are in the process of scheduling his appointment (even veterinary specialists take forever to schedule, apparently!).

I’m anxious and unsure if we’re doing the right thing for Moe, but he’s too young (not even 2) to be in chronic pain.

Here he is enjoying some corn husk and giving me major side eye that I’d better not take it away.

 

[fournakedpigs]

Another update: Moe is officially scheduled for consult and then potential MRI or CT scan depending on their prognosis on November 30th! Moe welcomes all healing vibes and fattening food omens to get his weight up in case of surgery. Mom and Dad welcome lots of anti-anxiety meds and hopes for good news for Moe.

 

[weepweeps]

Percy and Pepper send healing vibes to Moe and a hug for mum and dad

 

[alpacasqueak]

Moe is gorgeous, so glad he’s feeling better with the gabapentin and metacam Really hope your consultation and possible scans can bring you some answers and all goes well, will be thinking of you all on the 30th and sending positive vibes (and invisible anxiety meds!) across the pond! Big hugs too!
Enjoy stuffing your lovely little face with tasty grub until then Moe! x

 

[fournakedpigs]

Percy and Pepper send healing vibes to Moe and a hug for mum and dad

Thank you! We so appreciate it. He deserves to have a pain-free life, and we’re gonna do everything we can to give it to him!

 

[fournakedpigs]

Moe is gorgeous, so glad he’s feeling better with the gabapentin and metacam Really hope your consultation and possible scans can bring you some answers and all goes well, will be thinking of you all on the 30th and sending positive vibes (and invisible anxiety meds!) across the pond! Big hugs too!
Enjoy stuffing your lovely little face with tasty grub until then Moe! x

Thanks so much! He is definitely a handsome chap. We’re anxious, but we know this is the best thing for answers. If this vet (we’re traveling 5 hours for the best of the best) says we should just continue to manage his pain without answers, that’s fine, too, but at least we’ll have done all we can.

 

[fournakedpigs]

Another Moe update because I’m so anxious as we get super close to his appointment:

Someone suggested looking into hyperthyroidism and guinea pigs. It fits Moe’s symptoms almost to a tee. He is losing weight steadily, eating and drinking more than our other boys (maybe as much as double), is hypersensitive to sounds and movement, also had swollen nodes at one point (possibly thyroid?). I’m not getting my hopes up that this is it, but, if it is, it’s so much better than any of the other terrible outcomes and can at least be managed with meds. I’ve read the few limited studies available on hyperthyroidism in guinea pigs, and it seems pretty promising as a diagnosis, though obviously I’m not a vet.

Has anyone had experience with this?

Will update after Moe’s seen the vet in 48-ish hours! Cross your fingers for my sweet, loving, and curious boy. He deserves the world.

 

[fournakedpigs]

Moe gets treated to breakfast in bed on the morning of his big evaluation.

 

[RedLoredAmazon]

Hoping all goes well for Moe. Where did they send you for Moe? I live in Indiana and it's nice to know of other good vet practices in the area.

 

[fournakedpigs]

Hoping all goes well for Moe. Where did they send you for Moe? I live in Indiana and it's nice to know of other good vet practices in the area.

We're actually in Indianapolis right now with Moe! They sent us to Avian and Exotic Animal Clinic in Indianapolis. According to my vet, they are the best in the region (assuming the Midwest) for advanced imaging and diagnostics. They also ONLY see exotics, so they are definitely specialists in the field.

 

[RedLoredAmazon]

We're actually in Indianapolis right now with Moe! They sent us to Avian and Exotic Animal Clinic in Indianapolis. According to my vet, they are the best in the region (assuming the Midwest) for advanced imaging and diagnostics. They also ONLY see exotics, so they are definitely specialists in the field.

I love that practice! It's good that you got to go there. The parrot in the picture has been going to that practice for 27 of his 28 years. They have been really busy so I couldn't get my piggies in for a well check and found another exotic vet at a dog/cat practice. I knew they were in good health, but I needed a checkup for them. I couldn't foster until Cocoa and Oreo had their check up too.

Hoping for the best and that they will be able to give you some news about Moe!

 

[fournakedpigs]

I love that practice! It's good that you got to go there. The parrot in the picture has been going to that practice for 27 of his 28 years. They have been really busy so I couldn't get my piggies in for a well check and found another exotic vet at a dog/cat practice. I knew they were in good health, but I needed a checkup for them. I couldn't foster until Cocoa and Oreo had their check up too.

Hoping for the best and that they will be able to give you some news about Moe!

Oh, wow! I'm so comforted to talk to someone else who has been there. I'm sorry you couldn't get in for their check-ups, but at least it wasn't anything overly serious!

They actually just texted to let me know they're about to start working on him. They are doing sedation for a full dental examination and x-rays in order to eliminate that as a cause before looking to more advanced imaging. I'm a ball of nerves right now!

 

[RedLoredAmazon]

How is Moe doing?

 

[fournakedpigs]

How is Moe doing?

Thank you so much for asking. Sorry for the delay — been a hectic 24 hours. Sorry for how long this is! It was helpful for me to type it all out, so I just went for it.

So Moe is doing GREAT. They said he came out of sedation like a champ and that he was walking and eating almost immediately, which is amazing. However, they found nothing. They basically confirmed what every other vet we’ve seen has said, which is “this pig is a weird enigma of terrible genetics and we have no clue what’s wrong.” (I’m not at all upset at them. We knew this was a potential outcome when we decided to travel for this.)

His teeth, one of the suspected culprits, are beautiful. One front incisor was very, very slightly chipped, which she evened out, but it was so minor she said it wasn’t a concern. Bloodwork? Great. Full body X-ray? Great. The ONLY thing she could find was on one X-ray his liver looked slightly enlarged, but it looks normal on all other images and she can't feel it enlarged physically. She said she thinks it's fine, but she's trying to find anything that may be impacting him. We are sending them to a second radiograph specialist to confirm, but she suspects no results there.

She also noticed he has mild bumblefoot, probably amplified by his recent time spent in his carrier and the mushy poops he’s been having. I explained how he literally spends 95% of his day in one spot, ergo despite the fact it gets cleaned TWICE a day, he is still sitting in his urine and poop. Going to treat it and try to make his kitchen area softer, but it's unlikely that would cause pain to the level that is impacting him that greatly. I also explained his personality and how he isn't a traditional guinea pig (hence sitting in his kitchen all day, etc.), and she agreed and said they noticed he's a very unique and weird pig. Lol She said this makes it more difficult to figure him out because it's hard to tell what's wrong and what's a Moe idiosyncrasy. She gave us some tips for how to prevent future bumblefoot, but again, it’s hard because he spends so much time in one spot, and it’s not a result of husbandry or cleanliness. Any additional tips welcomed for how to prevent this going forward.

She recommended against MRI or CT scan because she said they're great tools but she uses them intentionally looking to rule something in or out. She said there's no indication anything would show up for Moe based on all his other diagnostics. It would purely be a hunting expedition, likely with unfruitful results. I did, however, request more bloodwork to be sent out to test for thyroid issues, which COULD be his issue, but he doesn't present 100% (again, is it cause it's not what's wrong or because he's weird). I figured we're here... money is already accounted for, rule ANYTHING in or out.

So, essentially, we’re no closer to establishing why he is continuously losing weight. He eats double what our other boys do (even though they’re all hairless), and he poops nearly 400 times a day (also more than his brothers). I’m beginning to wonder if he just has an insanely fast metabolism, but we still need to figure out how to get weight on him regardless. On the plus side, I feel much more confident that he is in much better health than we thought, just based off bloodwork and full exams under sedation. Also, although our primary exotic vet is wonderful, I feel better that we’ve had an actual specialist who sees weird exotic cases daily.

 

[Betsy]

Well I know you haven't got any answers as to why he is losing the weight but at least you know he's a generally healthy piggie even if he is a weird generally healthy piggy!

 

[fournakedpigs]

Well I know you haven't got any answers as to why he is losing the weight but at least you know he's a generally healthy piggie even if he is a weird generally healthy piggy!

Yes! He is actually much healthier than anticipated, so that’s good. I’ve asked the specialist for any advice in terms of helping him keep weight on, so hoping for some ideas. Even if it means worse quality pellets or treats that have more calories, etc., anything to help him because he’s just so tiny.

I’m starting to think we’ve spent thousands of dollars, so much time and energy, lots of sleepless nights... all just to discover this pig has the fastest metabolism in the world.

Oh, well. 10/10 would do again lol

 

[RedLoredAmazon]

I'm glad that he did well at the vet and he go a clean bill of health. I'm sorry that you don't have any updates on what is going on with him. Hopefully you and Moe have a safe trip back home. Please keep us updated on Moe.

 

[dhill_cb7]

Wow ! Truly remarkable piggy you have with Moe. Prayers that he can put on some weight and keep it. Glad to hear his health is great.

 

[fournakedpigs]

I'm glad that he did well at the vet and he go a clean bill of health. I'm sorry that you don't have any updates on what is going on with him. Hopefully you and Moe have a safe trip back home. Please keep us updated on Moe.

Thank you so much! We’re almost home now, and I’m sure Moe is so ready to get out of this carrier!