Adding 3rd sow to bonded pair

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applemath10

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Hi everyone, hope all is well.

I am kindly looking for your guidance regarding the situation below.

I have a bonded pair of sows about 1 year old in 12.5 sq ft cage. All is well and happy.

I thought it will be more fun to add a 3rd sow, I added one (3-4 months old) one week ago. Well it hasn’t been what I expected (I was ignorant).

As of right now I can tell that there is no harmony yet. The current pair bully the new one a lot (nose punching, aggressive chasing, chasing her away from food and water), I’d say that happens 50% of the time. Sometimes they’re all chill and eating and drinking. Most of the time the new sow hides from the current pair and sneaks to get food and water. She also squeaks a lot when they get near her, but not from physical attack.

There has been no injuries/bites or fights, just aggressive lunging and nose punching and chasing.

I would like to ask how do I know if they will figure things out amongst themselves or not. How do I know that it won’t work and I should return the 3rd sow? Is this week of no harmony sufficient to let the 3rd sow go.

Thank you all again.
 
Did you introduce them on neutral territory and carry out the bonding properly before moving them to a cage together?

It takes two weeks for them to fully form a bond so seeing dominance during that time is to be expected while they settle and sort things out.
Its important not to confuse aggression and dominance. Dominance is very normal, aggression is not. The squeakkng she is making is submission and is normal but hiding constantly from them, if it is constant, would raise suspicions. While piggies aren’t cuddly creatures, they don’t share hides all the time etc, but is there any interaction between them?
Bullying is a sustained behaviour where the underpig is never allowed to eat so consequently loses weight, is always chased out of hides so is never allowed to rest, becomes withdrawn and depressed.

Please read the guides below as they will help you figure out what you are seeing

Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics
Sows: Behaviour and female health problems (including ovarian cysts)
Adding More Guinea Pigs Or Merging Pairs – What Works And What Not?
Dominance Behaviours In Guinea Pigs
Moody Guinea Pigs: Depression, Bullying, Aggression, Stress, Fear and Antisocial Behaviour
 
It would also help to know more about your set up - maybe a photo of your cage?
Things like cage layout and resources are very important.
There should be multiple water bottles and hay piles, at least one body length apart to allow everyone to be able to eat and drink.
How are their weights?
Weekly weighing is important to make sure everyone is getting full access to food.
 
Piggies&buns said:
Did you introduce them on neutral territory and carry out the bonding properly before moving them to a cage together?

It takes two weeks for them to fully form a bond so seeing dominance during that time is to be expected while they settle and sort things out.
Its important not to confuse aggression and dominance. Dominance is very normal, aggression is not. The squeakkng she is making is submission and is normal but hiding constantly from them, if it is constant, would raise suspicions. While piggies aren’t cuddly creatures, they don’t share hides all the time etc, but is there any interaction between them?
Bullying is a sustained behaviour where the underpig is never allowed to eat so consequently loses weight, is always chased out of hides so is never allowed to rest, becomes withdrawn and depressed.

Please read the guides below as they will help you figure out what you are seeing

Bonding and Interaction: Illustrated social behaviours and bonding dynamics
Sows: Behaviour and female health problems (including ovarian cysts)
Adding More Guinea Pigs Or Merging Pairs – What Works And What Not?
Dominance Behaviours In Guinea Pigs
Moody Guinea Pigs: Depression, Bullying, Aggression, Stress, Fear and Antisocial Behaviour
Click to expand...
Thank you very much for your reply!

As for your first question, I did not do this properly. I put her in the current cage (which was cleaned a couple of days before). I realized the mistake so the same day I put them in a neutral territory later and observed, it was better but still I can tell they are pushing her around. After that I gave them a bath together and cleaned cage and started over, things definitely improved but marginally in my opinion. Also I want to mention that first one or two days there was teeth chattering but none after that.

All the bullying behaviors you mentioned occur, but not always, I would say more than half of the time though. So she does eat, drink, hide, groom and sleep, but I think not as much as she wants to. I held her several times, she looks in good shape physically.

I will read the material!
 
Swissgreys said:
It would also help to know more about your set up - maybe a photo of your cage?
Things like cage layout and resources are very important.
There should be multiple water bottles and hay piles, at least one body length apart to allow everyone to be able to eat and drink.
How are their weights?
Weekly weighing is important to make sure everyone is getting full access to food.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your reply. I believe the cage has enough for all, pictures below.

Its strange because sometimes they’ll let her share in the middle main hay supply and sometimes they’ll chase her away that’s why I put the side hay supplies which she resorts to as needed.
 

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Could you please confirm the measurements of the cage?

Also, all three hides are all enclosed ie they only have one exit. This can cause problems. Single exit hides are not recommended. All hides should have two exits so no problems can occur inside them or one piggy get trapped inside them.

Bonding baths are not recommended and are actually futile as they will not make them like each other. It all comes down to character compatibility

The little hayracks on the side look to be quite high up and consequently inaccessible. It may just be the way it looks on the picture though.
Honestly though, I would get rid of the hay wheel in the middle and just throw in loose piles of hay. That way they can play in it, hide in it and forage much more freely.

Its so important to know the difference between dominance and bullying. It’s a subtle but fine line. Dominance isn’t a problem, proper bullying is bond breaking and means they can’t stay together. This is why you need to be certain of what you are seeing,
Chasing, rumbling, teeth chattering are all normal dominance

Have you been weighing them?
 
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Piggies&buns said:
Could you please confirm the measurements of the cage?

Also, all three hides are all enclosed ie they only have one exit. This can cause problems. Single exit hides are not recommended. All hides should have two exits so no problems can occur inside them or one piggy get trapped inside them.

Bonding baths are not recommended and are actually futile as they will not make them like each other. It all comes down to character compatibility

The little hayracks on the side look to be quite high up and consequently inaccessible. It may just be the way it looks on the picture though.
Honestly though, I would get rid of the hay wheel in the middle and just throw in loose piles of hay. That way they can play in it, hide in it and forage much more freely.

Its so important to know the difference between dominance and bullying. It’s a subtle but fine line. Dominance isn’t a problem, proper bullying is bond breaking and means they can’t stay together. This is why you need to be certain of what you are seeing,
Chasing, rumbling, teeth chattering are all normal dominance

Have you been weighing them?
Click to expand...
Cage is 1.52x0.76m

It’s hard to see in the picture, the corner shaped houses have big openings on each side (so each house has 3 openings), and she uses all the openings to escape when chased! The trapezoid house has a hole big enough for the new young sow, I can still drill new openings also as I did with the corner houses in the past since she doesnt seem to be using this hole.

Understood about the bath, lesson learned!

The racks are a bit high to avoid using horizontal cage space but they call reach out and eat from it. I will remove the hay wheel and put piles of hay today and let you know how it goes.

I need to read more to try to determine the nature if what I am seeing.

I have not been weighing with a scale.

Again I appreciate all the help!
 
applemath10 said:
Cage is 1.52x0.76m

It’s hard to see in the picture, the corner shaped houses have big openings on each side (so each house has 3 openings), and she uses all the openings to escape when chased! The trapezoid house has a hole big enough for the new young sow, I can still drill new openings also as I did with the corner houses in the past since she doesnt seem to be using this hole.

Understood about the bath, lesson learned!

The racks are a bit high to avoid using horizontal cage space but they call reach out and eat from it. I will remove the hay wheel and put piles of hay today and let you know how it goes.

I need to read more to try to determine the nature if what I am seeing.

I have not been weighing with a scale.

Again I appreciate all the help!
Click to expand...

The cage could be on the small side for three piggies. It is the measurement of a 2x4 (150x77) c&c but a 2x5 (180x77) is needed for three piggies. Although 12 sq feet is the space needed for three piggies, they’ve gone from having that to themselves to now having to share it with a third and it may be feeling a bit tighter now. Lack of space can cause tensions which can break bonds.

In my opinion, it’s better to not bother with any hayracks at all. They can be restrictive and instead just using loose piles of hay provides more enrichment and freedom to eat

They wouldn’t be considered multi exit houses. I can see what look like little windows which she may fit through now, but she wont forever.
It’s just important because we see defensive injuries occurring inside hides which aren’t a clear tunnel, with two proper ways out. Something more like the picture below or even cardboard boxes with holes cut in

Its so important that all piggies are weighed every week as part of routine care. It’s the only way to know they are eating enough hay. Reduced hay intake can often be the very first sign of illness (before any symptoms or illness, which you should always check out first) but also behavioural problems, so regular weighing means you can step in so much more quickly.

the guides below explain

Weight - Monitoring and Management
How To Pick Up And Weigh Your Guinea Pigs Safely (videos)
 

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To add, lunging is defensive, not aggressive. Its a way of telling another piggy to stay out of their space
 
Understood, I removed the hay wheel and will monitor the situation. I took a short video right after I removed they hay wheel and put a pile (attached).

I will check out the weighing information!
 
Rather than not allowed, they are not supported - the forum runs on volunteers and donations, and additional functionality costs additional money. Usually people just upload videos to YouTube and then post a link 😊
 
I see, thank you for clarifying this to me. Wow this forum with this superb quality is volunteer based, I am impressed! I will send a link to the video shortly.

Meanwhile can you direct me to resources about using hay piles? I never used hay piles as the main source of food before. I want to make sure they have enough hay for the whole day while I am not at home.
 
Yes, all volunteers.

There are no resources for using hay piles, you just throw a few decent sized piles in. It’s also best to have as many piles as you have piggies - so three separate hay piles - so they don’t have to share from one (particularly important during the bonding weeks), And piles should be at least one body length apart. It’s just importwnt they don’t run out while you aren’t there, but to be honest, it’s easier to ensure they have enough with piles than a rack anyway. Throw any out any hay which is wet daily.

Have things settled down at all in the week they’ve been together?
You are going to see chasing while they are still sorting out the details of the relationship but ensuring the little one is eating enough is important (and certainly multiple piles around the cage should help that as well). The weight checks are the only way to know she is being allowed to eat enough and not chased off more often than it appears (ie when you aren’t there to watch).
The issue with a trio is there is always a risk of an outsider situation occurring, and one piggy being left out. It can be easier to have even numbers of piggies.
 
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Sorry, I'd gone back to sleep 🙂

Glad to help! I don't know of any particular resources so I'll leave that to someone else, but I am confident you can't really go wrong with it.

I tend to add a handful or two for my three piggies each morning and night, unceremoniously plonked in the middle of their cage. I'm currently on maternity so they also get a midday check, but plenty of pigs are just fine without (although I'm sure mine will be upset when their midday grass goes away!). Over time I've gotten to know how much they need by eye and by their weekly weight checks.

I tend to use cheaper hay to form the bulk of the pile, usually meadow as it's softer and great to play in, and then give a smaller handful of more expensive hay on top, usually soft Timothy hay as my guys reliably eat almost all of it. For some simple enrichment I also sprinkle part of their daily pellets over the pile in the morning, then at night I'll sprinkle dried forage mix for variety if I have any.

Edit: I also tend to have "supplementary" sources of hay, for example of the roof of their castle-style house and in little cardboard boxes or paper bags I've accumulated. Also, lots of people use hay trays as hay us a pain to get off of fleece.
 
Piggies&buns said:
Yes, all volunteers.

There are no resources for using hay piles, you just throw a few decent sized piles in. It’s also best to have as many piles as you have piggies - so three separate hay piles - so they don’t have to share from one (particularly important during the bonding weeks), And piles should be at least one body length apart. It’s just importwnt they don’t run out while you aren’t there, but to be honest, it’s easier to ensure they have enough with piles than a rack anyway. Throw any out any hay which is wet daily.

Have things settled down at all in the week they’ve been together?
You are going to see chasing while they are still sorting out the details of the relationship but ensuring the little one is eating enough is important (and certainly multiple piles around the cage should help that as well). The weight checks are the only way to know she is being allowed to eat enough and not chased off more often than it appears (ie when you aren’t there to watch).
The issue with a trio is there is always a risk of an outsider situation occurring, and one piggy being left out. It can be easier to have even numbers of piggies.
Click to expand...
Understood per the hay piles!

It’s definitely gotten better but as you mention below I feel that outsider situation is there.

They were eating together from the one pile yesterday which I thought is a good sign. I did split the piles today though and will see.

Understood per the weight as a measurement of hay consumption.
 
poggle said:
Sorry, I'd gone back to sleep 🙂

Glad to help! I don't know of any particular resources so I'll leave that to someone else, but I am confident you can't really go wrong with it.

I tend to add a handful or two for my three piggies each morning and night, unceremoniously plonked in the middle of their cage. I'm currently on maternity so they also get a midday check, but plenty of pigs are just fine without (although I'm sure mine will be upset when their midday grass goes away!). Over time I've gotten to know how much they need by eye and by their weekly weight checks.

I tend to use cheaper hay to form the bulk of the pile, usually meadow as it's softer and great to play in, and then give a smaller handful of more expensive hay on top, usually soft Timothy hay as my guys reliably eat almost all of it. For some simple enrichment I also sprinkle part of their daily pellets over the pile in the morning, then at night I'll sprinkle dried forage mix for variety if I have any.

Edit: I also tend to have "supplementary" sources of hay, for example of the roof of their castle-style house and in little cardboard boxes or paper bags I've accumulated. Also, lots of people use hay trays as hay us a pain to get off of fleece.
Click to expand...
I see! Thank you for this detailed recommendation!
 
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