A Bit Of Help And Reassurance Needed ... New Piggies Fight

[CriLondon]

Hi all ,
I apologise in advance for a likely long message and perhaps for looking amateurish and inexpert .

I feel some people are going to shoot me here but I'd rather be honest .
I got my 2 boars from Pets , they are rescues as the family who previously had them , realised they didn't want them after just over a week .

They are approx 9 and 10 weeks old.

I have a 2 level hutch , which I am keeping indoors .

Although very scared and skittish , they seemed to settle in ok the first 24/48 hrs.
"Problems" seemed to begin right after that , with Batista starting to exert dominance and Dexter having none of it .
There were 3 little scuffles with Dexter trying to get the upper hand by climbing over Batista and nipping him on the sides.
Dexter must have lost those fights nonetheless because the results in the last week are as follows:

- Batista is the extrovert one , exploring , running , popcorning , going up and down the ramp at will , always wheeking to me and generally a lot more active and interacting . Dexter is becoming a recluse , only goes on little walks to get food and water , after which he goes to sit down and just stays ...
- Batista controls the food (I've given them 2 of everything now , bottles bowls hidey etc. , but still I have to keep him away from Dex fresh food bowl or he will bully him away to claim his food which results in Dex going away squeaking in distress/disapproval and staying away.
-I've caught Batista "mounting" Dex from the front at least 3-4 times and Dex squeaks a lot in distress.
- Whilst foraging together , Dexter keeps squeaking in distress (or maybe submission?) , and Batista starts walking really slowly , makes himself bigger , kind of makes a rrrrrrrr sound whilst shifting his back legs left and right . This happens a LOT.

Despite all this , which makes it extremely puzzling for a newbie like me who just wants them to give them a good home and life (!), they seem to struggle when away from each other , they very often sleep together (although not snuggled up , but very close and in a relaxed posture ).

Am I just being over-worried and this is the dominance phase , or should I truly be preoccupied as Dexter seems to be struggling to adapt?Maybe their working-things-out time is long?

I've read all of your guides on bonding and behaviour , I'm struggling to put the pieces of the puzzle together as I'm seeing contrasting behaviours from the piggies .

Any help will be truly appreciated and thank you !

Sorry again for the lengthy post.

 

[Wiebke]

Hi!

The behaviour is par for the course and the dominance phase; boar-boar mounting happens from all directions.

Your "distress" squealing is submission squeaking and is not in pain. It is usually most prevalent at the end of the dominance phase when the underpiggy get its say just far it is allowing itself to be pushed - that is where the submission squealing comes in. It is actually a (rather effective) deterrent for the other pig to not exert their dominance.

All piggies need to establish or re-establish a hierarchy and therefore a working group in any new territory or group composition. This usually happens once they have got their bearings. On average, the dominance phase (or if you'd rather the group establishment) lasts for a bout two weeks.

It can be very disconcerting when you have never had guinea pigs before. Unlike us, they have to spell everything out and cannot get by with just little hints. It looks a lot rougher than it actually is, and a lot if it are carefully judged gestured of power from nipping to swiping and mounting, chucking an underpiggy out of a hut or from a bowl.

Dominance Behaviours In Guinea Pigs
Illustrated Bonding / Dominance Behaviours And Dynamics

 

[CriLondon]

Hi!

The behaviour is par for the course and the dominance phase; boar-boar mounting happens from all directions.

Your "distress" squealing is submission squeaking and is not in pain. It is usually most prevalent at the end of the dominance phase when the underpiggy get its say just far it is allowing itself to be pushed - that is where the submission squealing comes in. It is actually a (rather effective) deterrent for the other pig to not exert their dominance.

All piggies need to establish or re-establish a hierarchy and therefore a working group in any new territory or group composition. This usually happens once they have got their bearings. On average, the dominance phase (or if you'd rather the group establishment) lasts for a bout two weeks.

It can be very disconcerting when you have never had guinea pigs before. Unlike us, they have to spell everything out and cannot get by with just little hints. It looks a lot rougher than it actually is, and a lot if it are carefully judged gestured of power from nipping to swiping and mounting, chucking an underpiggy out of a hut or from a bowl.

Dominance Behaviours In Guinea Pigs
Illustrated Bonding / Dominance Behaviours And Dynamics

Hi Wiebke ,

Thank you for your time and answer.

I'm just a little worried by the "recluse" behaviour in the other one , maybe he's just adjusting to the conditions?

I guess being a new owner I'm very sensitive to what is happening and I'm scared of making mistakes but also would like them to stay together , as long as they can coexist without hurting each other .

Edit : P.S. I keep saying new owner , but clearly I am newly owned ... by them ...

 

[flowerfairy]

Mistletoe is the submissive one in my pair and would spend a lot of time hiding when I first got them. Her sister, Jingle would often chase her out of hidies and eat most of the food. I would scatter feed. J just ate so fast and M would be too busy hiding!

Over the months they have calmed down and both eat well. These days Mistletoe is often to be found laying on top of one of their ikea dolls beds! As for those sqeaks, Mistletoe is the expert at shrieking. She is also the one that whistles with great enthusiasm when food is required!

My new boar who is currently their neighbour until he has been 6 weeks post neuter, hides a lot when he sees me and rrrrrs and sways (rumblestruts) whenever the sows come close to the adjoining grids!

 

[CriLondon]

Mistletoe is the submissive one in my pair and would spend a lot of time hiding when I first got them. Her sister, Jingle would often chase her out of hidies and eat most of the food. I would scatter feed. J just ate so fast and M would be too busy hiding!

Over the months they have calmed down and both eat well. These days Mistletoe is often to be found laying on top of one of their ikea dolls beds! As for those sqeaks, Mistletoe is the expert at shrieking. She is also the one that whistles with great enthusiasm when food is required!

My new boar who is currently their neighbour until he has been 6 weeks post neuter, hides a lot when he sees me and rrrrrs and sways (rumblestruts) whenever the sows come close to the adjoining grids!

Thank you for sharing your experience with me , it helped reading through !
For the time being I just try to ensure they don't get into huge fights as I'm worried they ll hurt each other and try to make sure they eat equally but that's quite complicated at present!

 

[CriLondon]

I'm not exactly sure where to start here but .... things have deteriorated badly in the last couple of days , there have been some intense fights .
Yesterday evening they were munching hay away together when all of a sudden things got heated and they started circling each other quite fast , each with their chins over the other's neck .
I've managed to stop that in time but an hour later there was another loud and intense fight and what looked like an attempt at a bite.
I've checked them both and they have no injuries or blood .... but I think sooner or later this will happen .
They are growing apart and there are rarely any moments when they are together and relaxed .

They have 2 of everything , they have 2 floors of space , I've extended the ramp to make it a lot less steep , they both use both floors at will .

Is there anything else I can try to do before the inevitable happens and I have to separate them , remove the ramp and make it 2 non-communicating floors ?

 

[Swissgreys]

It does sound like they are still in the process of 'actively discussing' their hierarchy.
How big is their hutch?
It sounds like they haven't fallen out fully, but are still working things out and I know of a couple of people who have found that giving them more space can sometimes help them get through this phase.
The problem (imho) with these 2 story hutches (mine also started off in one) is that they don't offer as much space as you initially think.
A large portion of the top floor is 'lost' where the hole for the ramp is.
Plus there are a lot of 'flashpoint' spaces were piggies could feel boxed in or trapped (like at the top and bottom of the ramp, pretty much everywhere on the smaller top level, etc).
I personally think with a 'feisty' bonding, large, flat open spaces are the way forward, so the piggies can easily see each otehr and avoid being cornered unexpectedly.
When I had to separate my 4 into pairs, Ruby and Lucy had a few issues, and what seemed to work was removing the loft from the C&C, and increasing the floor area, as well as keeping it as uncluttered as possible.
Now they are calmer I have added lots back into their cage, but at the first sign of problems I tend to take them out and put them in the large floor time pen for a few days.
A change of scenery and a large open area does wonders, and when i return them to their cage they seem ok again.

And I don't think you sound inexperienced at all.
I think you sound like a very committed and intelligent owner who is doing their best to give their piggies a wonderful and happy life.

 

[Reenie]

Stick with it, and give them as much space as possible. I've three boars and they are constantly bickering as you describe, but they seem to quite like each other really. They have tons of space, so can get away when they want. The rumblestrutting (slow walk, hips swaying and rrrr sound that you talked about) is perfectly normal - in fact, one of mine rarely walks normally, just rumblestruts his way through life. The chins over each other's heads/necks/backs is normal too, and the squeaking, as Wiebke said is just them saying 'ok, ok, you're the boss, I know!' In my limited experience (a rescue boar whom I tried to bond), it was constant teeth chattering (occasional is fine), and yawning at each other (showing teeth), which indicated things were going to get heavy (and they did, quite quickly after that).