71gm weight drop in 6 days. Advice please!

[EarthAngel]

I'm so sorry to be a nuisance. My 5 year old, male piggy Bandit, was diagnosed a week ago with a 97mm bladder stone.
Apparently at this moment it isn't causing an obstruction.
He was/ is put onto metacam ( the cat version). 0.2ml once a day.
He was eating less and had blood I'm his urine when I took him to the vet.
He still is passing blood in his urine. But I'm more concerned that he has gone from 887 grams to 816 grams in 6 days. I spend ages cutting his veggies up into thin matchstick shapes, as he seems to not want to eat anything big or chunky now. I pull tiny bits of lettuce from the leaf and feed to him. But he isn't eating anywhere near the amount that he was previously.
Stupidly seeing him eating hay, I assumed he was at least eating that still.. and I continued to battle with the veggies every night
He always would eat pretty much anything.
Please, please can you advise what I should do.
I have found some Emraid food online, but unsure if it is the right one. I shall add a photo for reference.
I cannot afford the £500 surgery to have the bladder syndrome removed , which is tearing me apart.
I truly appreciate any help at all.
Thank you xx

 

[Piggies&buns]

Any weight loss over 50g means you do need to step in with syringe feeding. You need to switch to daily weight checks and to monitor his quality of life

0.2ml of cat once a day is not going to manage his pain with a bladder stone. Piggies need their pain meds twice a day as they metabolise them in around 12 hours and can take significantly higher doses to manage it.
With such a small dose though you cannot split it so should continue with giving it once a day as prescribed. We would advise you have a discussion with your vet about his current pain relief needs.

I’m sorry to hear you can’t do the surgery, we do understand how hard this can be.

All About Syringe Feeding and Medicating Guinea Pigs with Videos and Pictures

 

[EarthAngel]

Any weight loss over 50g means you do need to step in with syringe feeding. You need to switch to daily weight checks and to monitor his quality of life

0.2ml of cat once a day is not going to manage his pain with a bladder stone. Piggies need their pain meds twice a day as they metabolise them in around 12 hours and can take significantly higher doses to manage it.
With such a small dose though you cannot split it so should continue with giving it once a day as prescribed. We would advise you have a discussion with your vet about his current pain relief needs.

I’m sorry to hear you can’t do the surgery, we do understand how hard this can be.

All About Syringe Feeding and Medicating Guinea Pigs with Videos and Pictures

Thank you so much for your help and information. I really appreciate it.

Would the food I linked be ok? Sorry I have read over the different helpful files. Just I suffer really bad migraines so I struggle to stay online long, and find it hard to absorb information.

Oh really . I could split the dose into 0.1ml twice daily, but like you say it's a small dose. So probably wont do much. It has been a long time since having piggies on meds, so just went with what the vet told me.
Sounds as though I need to talk to her again about upping the pain meds.

I feel so bad about the surgery. If I had it, I'd do it in a heartbeat. But I'm disabled and on a low income. Not had a holiday in over 26 years. Our money just goes into the animals ( 4 disabled dogs, few other rescues) . I wish so much I could do it.


Really grateful for your help xx

 

[EarthAngel]

I've been withholding pellets because of the calcium in them. Not that they ever had many. I relied on hay abd veggies mainly.
Should I mash these for now until I can get a critical care type food to syringe? xx

 

[Piggies&buns]

Yes the food linked is fine

You cannot split a dose that small. You would render each half dose basically useless. Do see if you can have a chat with the vet about a higher dose.

Yes I would do mushed pellets for the time being.

It’s clear you love him. but there comes a point for all of us where financial decisions have to come into play

 

[EarthAngel]

Yes the food linked is fine

You cannot split a dose that small. You would render each half dose basically useless. Do see if you can have a chat with the vet about a higher dose.

Yes I would do mushed pellets for the time being.

It’s clear you love him. but there comes a point for all of us where financial decisions have to come into play

That's fantastic thank you so much.
Just ordered that food , and paid to have it delivered sooner. So fingers crossed. and will do the mashed pellets for now.
Thank you so much xx

 

[Wiebke]

Hi

Please contact your vet about upping the painkillers and a shift to three times stronger dog metacam as the stone is making itself felt. The current dosage of cat metacam is about the equivalent 1 drop of dog metacam and as minimal as your vet can make it. The sheer relief from pain does more to prolong the life more than any other health considerations, which do not apply to guinea pigs anyway and. I am having arthritic oldies of mine on much higher long term dog metacam without any kidney problems. Metacam is both a pinkiller and an anti-inflammatory that helps with any swelling of the bladder walls from the stone banging into them with every pee.

The other measure you want to consider is 0.4 ml of Johnson's 4joints strong liquid for dogs (UK over the counter brand). It is the easiest way to give glucosamine, which will over time help to replenish the badly scratched natural glucosamine coat of the walls of the urinary tract, which prevents the highly corrosive urine from coming into direct painfully stinging contact with raw tissue. It takes a few weeks to build up fully but it does really help with the longer term comfort. The same combo of metacam and glucosamine is also effective with arthritis.

Please regulate the top up feeding by weighing daily on the kitchen scales first thing in the morning when the daily weight swing is at its lowest so you can then plan the support level for the coming 24 hours. Your first aim is to stabilise the weight.

Here is a picture of a bladder stone collection from some piggies of mine, just to give you an idea. The middle stone is about the size of what your boy has (thankfully too large to go down the urethra and getting stuck/blocking the urine flow there, which means at least one worry less); the stone on the right was mahoosive (i.e. rabbit sized) and is about the size of nearly a full bladder in a slighly smaller piggy.

But you are essentially looking at terminal care so the rules re. palliative care apply, which means freedom from pain having priority over longer term potentially life-shortening considerations. Unfortunately, the stone won't go away or shrink so it is going to become too much at some point. This process has now started with the comparatively minor weight loss in the last week.
It would be good if you thought now about how far down you want to take your boy re. feeding support and increasingly strong painkillers since it can turn into a bit of a rabbit hole. If you decide now where you want to draw the line between feeding dependency/quality of life and increasing pain support, it is going to make it easier for you when you come to the sharp end and also for processing it all afterwards because you have a base line to fall back on when you feel torn apart between very strong warring desires, fears and feelings of guilt/failure. Once you have set your limit, you can then concentrate on making every day more with your boy special and be with him in the now - love transcends time and you can pack a lifetime's worth of it and shared fund and joy into a very short space of time.
A Practical and Sensitive Guide to Dying, Terminal Illness and Euthanasia in Guinea Pigs

Enrichment Ideas for Guinea Pigs

I hope that this helps you make the best of the remaining time for both of you.

 

[EarthAngel]

Hi

Please contact your vet about upping the painkillers and a shift to three times stronger dog metacam as the stone is making itself felt. The current dosage of cat metacam is about the equivalent 1 drop of dog metacam and as minimal as your vet can make it. The sheer relief from pain does more to prolong the life more than any other health considerations, which do not apply to guinea pigs anyway and. I am having arthritic oldies of mine on much higher long term dog metacam without any kidney problems. Metacam is both a pinkiller and an anti-inflammatory that helps with any swelling of the bladder walls from the stone banging into them with every pee.

The other measure you want to consider is 0.4 ml of Johnson's 4joints strong liquid for dogs (UK over the counter brand). It is the easiest way to give glucosamine, which will over time help to replenish the badly scratched natural glucosamine coat of the walls of the urinary tract, which prevents the highly corrosive urine from coming into direct painfully stinging contact with raw tissue. It takes a few weeks to build up fully but it does really help with the longer term comfort. The same combo of metacam and glucosamine is also effective with arthritis.

Please regulate the top up feeding by weighing daily on the kitchen scales first thing in the morning when the daily weight swing is at its lowest so you can then plan the support level for the coming 24 hours. Your first aim is to stabilise the weight.

Here is a picture of a bladder stone collection from some piggies of mine, just to give you an idea. The middle stone is about the size of what your boy has (thankfully too large to go down the urethra and getting stuck/blocking the urine flow there, which means at least one worry less); the stone on the right was mahoosive (i.e. rabbit sized) and is about the size of nearly a full bladder in a slighly smaller piggy.

But you are essentially looking at terminal care so the rules re. palliative care apply, which means freedom from pain having priority over longer term potentially life-shortening considerations. Unfortunately, the stone won't go away or shrink so it is going to become too much at some point. This process has now started with the comparatively minor weight loss in the last week.
It would be good if you thought now about how far down you want to take your boy re. feeding support and increasingly strong painkillers since it can turn into a bit of a rabbit hole. If you decide now where you want to draw the line between feeding dependency/quality of life and increasing pain support, it is going to make it easier for you when you come to the sharp end and also for processing it all afterwards because you have a base line to fall back on when you feel torn apart between very strong warring desires, fears and feelings of guilt/failure. Once you have set your limit, you can then concentrate on making every day more with your boy special and be with him in the now - love transcends time and you can pack a lifetime's worth of it and shared fund and joy into a very short space of time.
A Practical and Sensitive Guide to Dying, Terminal Illness and Euthanasia in Guinea Pigs

Enrichment Ideas for Guinea Pigs

I hope that this helps you make the best of the remaining time for both of you.

Oh wow thank you for such informative advice. I really do appreciate you taking the time to write all of that.
I've had 20 years + experience with rats , and all kinds of meds / illnesses and knew they also needed higher doses of metacam than often vets assume. But am sadly not as knowledgeable with guinea pigs. Though I do try to research, as nothing annoys me more than when folk jump into getting an animal, without learning about them first!

I spoke to the receptionist at the vet yesterday. I'd been waiting for a call back after ringing Thursday evening.
She had spoken to the vet and she recommended putting the metacam up by 2 notches a time, on the metacam syringe. So from 0.2 to 0.3 ml, wait a couple of days and go up another 2 notches and so on until we reach 1.0 ml then that is it?

You are clearly very experienced in this matter, could you advise if you are allowed on what amount he should be having?
We do have a dog version in the cupboard which is 1.5mg/ml oral suspension. In date until next year.
Any advice would be gratefully received.
His weight is now 866 grams after syringe feeding since Wednesday.

I just want him to be as comfortable as possible for the time he has left. I'd not want him unduly suffering .
I could tell previously he wasn't doing so good and was going day by day. As he looked puffy in his coat, laying around and his eyes had lost that spark.
Since regaining some weight , being syringe fed. He has some of his sparkle and sass back.

Being as you are very experienced in this, can you advise in what I should avoid food wise? I've always stressed about the right foods to feed, and researched where able.
Partner says just let him eat what he will eat at this time. But of course I'm stressed about the calcium in certain foods, and do not want to be adding to his bladder stone getting bigger? Like right now he will only eat rainbow chard which I'm giving in small amounts. Do I let him eat what he will at this stage? Or restrict everything with high calcium content?
He would always eat any and all veg pretty much. But since getting poorly he stopped showing an interest.

Thank you hugely for any help and advice you can give. I'm just wanting to do the best I can by my boy right now.
I appreciate you x

 

[EarthAngel]

Oh wow thank you for such informative advice. I really do appreciate you taking the time to write all of that.
I've had 20 years + experience with rats , and all kinds of meds / illnesses and knew they also needed higher doses of metacam than often vets assume. But am sadly not as knowledgeable with guinea pigs. Though I do try to research, as nothing annoys me more than when folk jump into getting an animal, without learning about them first!

I spoke to the receptionist at the vet yesterday. I'd been waiting for a call back after ringing Thursday evening.
She had spoken to the vet and she recommended putting the metacam up by 2 notches a time, on the metacam syringe. So from 0.2 to 0.3 ml, wait a couple of days and go up another 2 notches and so on until we reach 1.0 ml then that is it?

You are clearly very experienced in this matter, could you advise if you are allowed on what amount he should be having?
We do have a dog version in the cupboard which is 1.5mg/ml oral suspension. In date until next year.
Any advice would be gratefully received.
His weight is now 866 grams after syringe feeding since Wednesday.

I just want him to be as comfortable as possible for the time he has left. I'd not want him unduly suffering .
I could tell previously he wasn't doing so good and was going day by day. As he looked puffy in his coat, laying around and his eyes had lost that spark.
Since regaining some weight , being syringe fed. He has some of his sparkle and sass back.

Being as you are very experienced in this, can you advise in what I should avoid food wise? I've always stressed about the right foods to feed, and researched where able.
Partner says just let him eat what he will eat at this time. But of course I'm stressed about the calcium in certain foods, and do not want to be adding to his bladder stone getting bigger? Like right now he will only eat rainbow chard which I'm giving in small amounts. Do I let him eat what he will at this stage? Or restrict everything with high calcium content?
He would always eat any and all veg pretty much. But since getting poorly he stopped showing an interest.

Thank you hugely for any help and advice you can give. I'm just wanting to do the best I can by my boy right now.
I appreciate you x

Bandit is obviously on the cat / orange box of metacam. Though I do have the dog one ( pink box) at home that was prescribed for one of my disabled dogs. But just trying to get the dose right. My vets are a new one we have been going to for the last couple if months, not particularly an exotic. Though they see all animal's xx

 

[Wiebke]

Maximal metacam dosages:
You can safely give up to 0.4 - 0.5 ml dog strength metacam (1.5mg/ml concentration; the current UK vet brand is called rheumocam) twice daily to a 1 kg piggy without the fear of overdosing. Which corresponds to 1.2 - 1.5 ml of cat strength loxicom (0.5 mg/ml cat strength brand name) twice daily in major pain. Just so you can put things into perspective.

Guinea pigs metabolise metacam very differently and they don't seem to get the kind of kidney problems that other pet species do. I have lost several piggies to kidney problems over the years but not one of them was on long term high metacam.

My Dylan was on 0.5 ml of dog strength rheumocam at 950g for a brewing jaw abscess over the Chistmas holiday period 2019 for about 2 months. Most thankfully, between two courses of a very strong antibiotic and the metacam the abscess settled down again, never to come back - especially in view that this happened just when Covid was starting up. I felt truly blessed not having to battle a dental abscess during Lockdown!
My own elderlies are on long term rheumocam for their arthritis; with my local vet's permission I adjust the level depending on their weight and up it bit by bit whenever their weight is coming down again. I usually have between 1-4 piggies on long term metacam...

PS: If you are interested in information, we have one of the most extensive resources on a wide range of aspects on here.
Here is the access link (which you can also find on the extended top bar) for bookmarking and browsing: Comprehensive Owners' Practical and Supportive Information Collection

 

[Wiebke]

Bandit is obviously on the cat / orange box of metacam. Though I do have the dog one ( pink box) at home that was prescribed for one of my disabled dogs. But just trying to get the dose right. My vets are a new one we have been going to for the last couple if months, not particularly an exotic. Though they see all animal's xx

Hi

Re. feeding - the lack of appetite is showing clearly that the level of painkiller is currently too low.

As to what to feed, it is your executive decision to opt for giving your boy the happiest of times at the price of a slightly shortened life span or to prolong his life at the price of quality of life. There is no right or wrong whichever way you decide to go; it has to feel right for you. As long as you give your boy the happy todays in good care without major pain that he measures a good life by you are not failing him, whether you prefer to emphasize the 'happy' or the 'days' part. You just can't have it all, unfortunately.

Please be aware that diet is only one factor in the build up of stones. A diet just a bit too low in calcium can also lead to the build up of them as one too high in calcium. There is a soft spot which differs locally so there is simply no precise advice that fits every situation.
There are however usually several other factors in play out of your control that lead to the formation of stones, from a genetic disposition to not being a great natural drinker (not much you can do about that) to something suddenly going wrong with the complex calcium absorption process. Diet changes can help in the case where it is mainly the diet balance that is wrong but they cannot do a lot where the calcium absorption process is out of kilter. There is also no medication that can do this reliably.

It is an area where we are still basically using a spade for carving a delicate lattice, medically working.

 

[EarthAngel]

Hi

Re. feeding - the lack of appetite is showing clearly that the level of painkiller is currently too low.

As to what to feed, it is your executive decision to opt for giving your boy the happiest of times at the price of a slightly shortened life span or to prolong his life at the price of quality of life. There is no right or wrong whichever way you decide tto go; it has to feel right for you. As long as you give your boy the happy todays in god care without major pain that he measures a good life by you are not failing him, whether you prefer to emphasize the 'happy' or the 'days'.

Please be aware that diet is only one factor in the build up on stones. A diet just a bit too low in calcium can also lead to the build up of them as one too high. There is a soft spot which is differs locally so there is simply no precise advice that fits every situation.
There are however usually several other factors in play out of your control that lead to the formation of stones, from a genetic disposition to not being a great natural drinker (not much you can do about that) to something suddenly going wrong with the complex calcium absorption process. Diet changes can help in the case where it is mainly the diet balance that is wrong but they cannot do a lot where the calcium absorption process is out of kilter. There is also no medication can do this reliably.

I'm so sorry for the delay in answering, I've had some terrible migraines , and a friend also passed away. So please forgive me.

With all your amazing advice, Bandit was swapped to the dog version of metacam.
It was 4 weeks ago he was diagnosed with the bladder stone.
I didn't think he would make 2 weeks, to be honest.
But he perked up on the higher painkiller, and was eating more veg again. Not to the standard of how he was before when well, he always ate everything. But still better than when he barely ate any.
Also he has been having emeraid every day, 2 to 3 times, and was loving that. His weight went back up.
He was out and about a lot more. I know I was only buying time, but it was so good to see him enjoying life again . Thanks to you

Unfortunately the last couple of days have seen a decline again on his weight. He is now back to 836 grams ( i had got him up to 904 grams) . No veg was touched last night, and I sat trying to hand feed him various things . I always have sat and hand fed each of them every night, so I can be aware of who eats what.
Today I'm literally having to carefully force the emeraid down him .
He just is not interested

He is now on 0.2ml of dog metacam, using a 1ml syringe. As I must have accidentally thrown away the metacam syringe .

Could you advice on how much to put the painkiller up again, safely?

Today I'm feeling like is it time to let him go ? Though at the same time, maybe if his painkiller is where it should be, he will again feel a lot more comfortable.
I do not want him suffering. It is the last thing I want.
At the same time I don't want to let him go to soon, if the painkiller being right could have helped.
If that makes sense?

As always, you have been a huge help. I honestly cannot say how much. I really appreciate you giving up your valuable time, to help me.
Truly grateful xx

 

[EarthAngel]

Maximal metacam dosages:
You can safely give up to 0.4 - 0.5 ml dog strength metacam (1.5mg/ml concentration; the current UK vet brand is called rheumocam) twice daily to a 1 kg piggy without the fear of overdosing. Which corresponds to 1.2 - 1.5 ml of cat strength loxicom (0.5 mg/ml cat strength brand name) twice daily in major pain. Just so you can put things into perspective.

Guinea pigs metabolise metacam very differently and they don't seem to get the kind of kidney problems that other pet species do. I have lost several piggies to kidney problems over the years but not one of them was on long term high metacam.

My Dylan was on 0.5 ml of dog strength rheumocam at 950g for a brewing jaw abscess over the Chistmas holiday period 2019 for about 2 months. Most thankfully, between two courses of a very strong antibiotic and the metacam the abscess settled down again, never to come back - especially in view that this happened just when Covid was starting up. I felt truly blessed not having to battle a dental abscess during Lockdown!
My own elderlies are on long term rheumocam for their arthritis; with my local vet's permission I adjust the level depending on their weight and up it bit by bit whenever their weight is coming down again. I usually have between 1-4 piggies on long term metacam...

PS: If you are interested in information, we have one of the most extensive resources on a wide range of aspects on here.
Here is the access link (which you can also find on the extended top bar) for bookmarking and browsing: Comprehensive Owners' Practical and Supportive Information Collection

Your little Dylan was very lucky to have you.
Abcesses are just a nightmare aren't they.
My rescue rats used to often end up with them. Especially the hairless ones, poor things.
One boy was every month having to have a whiff of gas, to have a encapsulated Abcess cleaned out. In the end we decided it wasn't really fair to him. So I dealt with it at home, and it never came back again.

Also these things always happen around Christmas or a weekend don't they! One of our elderly dogs had a Abcess rupture on Christmas morning many , many years ago. First time we had encountered one back then.

It sounds as though you have quite a few piggies. They are very lucky to have found such a wonderful human to love them.
Thank you again for all of your time and incredible advice. Not only have you made me feel better about the situation, but you've helped Bandit too xx

 

[Wiebke]

I'm so sorry for the delay in answering, I've had some terrible migraines , and a friend also passed away. So please forgive me.

With all your amazing advice, Bandit was swapped to the dog version of metacam.
It was 4 weeks ago he was diagnosed with the bladder stone.
I didn't think he would make 2 weeks, to be honest.
But he perked up on the higher painkiller, and was eating more veg again. Not to the standard of how he was before when well, he always ate everything. But still better than when he barely ate any.
Also he has been having emeraid every day, 2 to 3 times, and was loving that. His weight went back up.
He was out and about a lot more. I know I was only buying time, but it was so good to see him enjoying life again . Thanks to you

Unfortunately the last couple of days have seen a decline again on his weight. He is now back to 836 grams ( i had got him up to 904 grams) . No veg was touched last night, and I sat trying to hand feed him various things . I always have sat and hand fed each of them every night, so I can be aware of who eats what.
Today I'm literally having to carefully force the emeraid down him .
He just is not interested

He is now on 0.2ml of dog metacam, using a 1ml syringe. As I must have accidentally thrown away the metacam syringe .

Could you advice on how much to put the painkiller up again, safely?

Today I'm feeling like is it time to let him go ? Though at the same time, maybe if his painkiller is where it should be, he will again feel a lot more comfortable.
I do not want him suffering. It is the last thing I want.
At the same time I don't want to let him go to soon, if the painkiller being right could have helped.
If that makes sense?

As always, you have been a huge help. I honestly cannot say how much. I really appreciate you giving up your valuable time, to help me.
Truly grateful xx

Hi

You can go up to 0.3-0.4 ml as a last ditch measure and see whether that buys you a day or a very few more but please accept that this may be the end and that the pain and damage from the stone is just too much now. I would recommend not go into opiates just for the sake of it. Saying goodbye won't get any easier the more you try to put it off.
You have had that precious extra month - in guinea pig terms it is more like an extra year of life.

Because of their big personalities we tend to forget that guinea pigs are just small animals with a much faster metabolism.

My thoughts are with you. Sadly, we cannot save and heal them all.