100g+ weight loss, no vet action

[PiggiePerson]

Hi all, hoping you wonderful people have some advice for my little Pepper (2 yo boar).

I returned from a 2 week work trip on Friday and noticed as soon as I picked up Pepper he felt lighter than usual. I weighed him and he was 100g lighter at roughly 1.2kg. Whilst I was away my partner was looking after my pair of pigs - totally capable and familiar with their routine/feeding/care etc. I spend the most time with them when home which is why I was able to instinctively notice a weight change. From this morning’s weigh in, Pepper has lost a further 35g over night and since this morning another 10g. Pepper’s behaviour is completely normal, only thing I’ve noticed is slightly smaller poos but nothing too crazy, this seems to be better today. He is eating his hay, pellets and veg, although have had him off the latter this afternoon whilst I keep an eye on him indoors. Both pigs are usually outdoor with constant access to grass. My other pig is completely fine, no weight or behaviour change, so probably doesn’t indicate an infection?

Vet trip this morning, nothing wrong with him clinically, front and back teeth fine, temp fine, and no signs of dehydration. Vet just said to keep an eye and if he loses another 10% then we would do blood tests but isn’t keen to give any meds at this point. 10% feels like a lot additional to lose before any action is taken?

I have a syringe and critical care delivery arriving tomorrow and have mushed up pellets tonight which Pepper ate some of, but not a huge fan. He is still eating his hay voluntarily though. Any ideas on what this could be, what to look out of, and anything I can be doing extra to help him put the weight back on? Should I continue feeding veg to the other pig he lives with (separately of course) or is there no harm him being indoors on just pellets and hay too?

Thanks all

 

[Piggies&buns]

I’m sorry to hear this.

Mystery weight loss is never an easy thing to be dealing with.
I'm wondering though - it was rather warm last week, were they still outside during the heat?

The smaller poops (and of course weight loss) would indicate a reduced hay intake.
All you can do at present is syringe feed to stabilise the weight loss.
Make sure you only weigh once a day, at the same time each day. If you weigh more than that you will pick up too much fluctuation which will reduce accuracy.

Regarding your other piggy and veggies - I would still try to give him his veg but do it by hand feeding him if you don’t want Pepper having veg.

 

[Free Ranger]

Vet has checked teeth but can you see the four front incisors yourself? There are two at the top and two at the bottom. Are they even and level (which is good) or sloping to one side? You don't want to see a slope.

Eating hay/grass etc good but smaller poops mean not getting enough fibre which means hay/grass intake is probably down. Grass is really sparse in the UK at the minute because of the heat but if other piggy is maintaining weight on what's there you are right to think something might be wrong.

They can pick up infections but you'd think that anything respiratory the vet would have detected by listening to breathing or looking for discharge so presumably they ruled that out.

Urinary infections are not as rare as we'd like so I'd think about that. A well established one can cause piggy to squeak when peeing but when my boy got one he never made a sound. However his tummy was wet with pee as it dripped out - there was inflammation and he tried to hold it in because presumably it stung a bit to go. The wet tummy was a giveaway for him. Even without these symptoms you can ask for the urine to be tested for presence of bacteria if you think it's a possibility. They should give you a bottle and pipette, then you just have to sit him in a bowl and wait till he produces a sample.

Even without UTI it's possible for them to develop bladder sludge or stones and this is pretty common for some pigs because of how they metabolise calcium. The vet should check for this by palpating the bladder to see if it's tender. My old boy recently had a huge stone form actually in his penis (the size of a bean!) that had to be squeezed out. I was really shocked as although we've had little stones before in other pigs this boy is 5 1/2 and hasn't ever had anything like that but vet said it could have been triggered by the recent heatwave and pigs getting slightly dehydrated causing the urine to concentrate. He lost about 100g over 2 weeks and started to shed hair before I could put my finger (literally) on what was wrong! The heat also triggered a bout of painful gritty pee in my fat girl who has had bouts of this before. She lost a bit of weight but she had metacam pain relief and extra water and this 'flushed her out' over a few days. She then regained the weight without any support feeding - the weight loss was more an indicator than a problem. We don't normally syringe just water as we worry about them inhaling it but Louise is so very fond of the sweet metacam that she chugged back about 10 x 1ml of water (snatching the syringe!) before she realised it wasn't the drugs she was anticipating! We use a very low calcium bottled water as we live in a very hard water area. It's from Waitrose... we humans just drink the scummy tap water.

Try sitting him on a white towel or sheet until he pees. You may see a pink tint of blood which will indicate either UTI or stones (or both). Orangey colour is normal - even fresh clear pee goes an alarming shade of orange as it oxidises! Not every vet is willing to hand out antibiotics on the off chance but it might be worth politely asking for a decent dose of metacam (ideally the 1.5mg/ml dog strength) to see if this makes any difference. If he does have stones or grit it could be that low levels of pain are just throwing his appetite off. If they have any reason to suspect this it can be confirmed by x-ray (ideally without general anaesthetic) or maybe ultrasound - but they generally have to have the belly shaved for that which isn't popular so these are more of a 'next step' than something you do just on the off chance.

UTI and stones/sludge are kind of run-of-the-mill piggy issues but there are of course other less common things that could be causing his problems - internal issues, unpleasant growths etc. But cross that bridge when you come to it - try and rule out the standard sort of things first. Unless you suspect bloat I wouldn't stop his veggies completely as hydration might be important. Good luck Pepper x

 

[PiggiePerson]

I’m sorry to hear this.

Mystery weight loss is never an easy thing to be dealing with.
I'm wondering though - it was rather warm last week, were they still outside during the heat?

The smaller poops (and of course weight loss) would indicate a reduced hay intake.
All you can do at present is syringe feed to stabilise the weight loss.
Make sure you only weigh once a day, at the same time each day. If you weigh more than that you will pick up too much fluctuation which will reduce accuracy.

Regarding your other piggy and veggies - I would still try to give him his veg but do it by hand feeding him if you don’t want Pepper having veg.

Thank you so much for your quick reply
Yes they were outside last week - I did ask for them to be taken indoors whilst I was away during those hot days but our temp gauge inside read warmer than it was out in the shade where they are kept. We always give them a cool damp towel over their hutch too.

Generally they don’t seem too bothered when it’s been hot before and I’ve put down ice packs wrapped in tea towels, cold tiles etc - they won’t go near them! Also, our other pig has lots of thick long hair so you’d think he’d be more affected by the heat, but has been completely fine. Still, it could be a possibility that this could be a reason for Pepper’s weight loss, just really weird how he’s normal otherwise!

 

[PiggiePerson]

Vet has checked teeth but can you see the four front incisors yourself? There are two at the top and two at the bottom. Are they even and level (which is good) or sloping to one side? You don't want to see a slope.

Eating hay/grass etc good but smaller poops mean not getting enough fibre which means hay/grass intake is probably down. Grass is really sparse in the UK at the minute because of the heat but if other piggy is maintaining weight on what's there you are right to think something might be wrong.

They can pick up infections but you'd think that anything respiratory the vet would have detected by listening to breathing or looking for discharge so presumably they ruled that out.

Urinary infections are not as rare as we'd like so I'd think about that. A well established one can cause piggy to squeak when peeing but when my boy got one he never made a sound. However his tummy was wet with pee as it dripped out - there was inflammation and he tried to hold it in because presumably it stung a bit to go. The wet tummy was a giveaway for him. Even without these symptoms you can ask for the urine to be tested for presence of bacteria if you think it's a possibility. They should give you a bottle and pipette, then you just have to sit him in a bowl and wait till he produces a sample.

Even without UTI it's possible for them to develop bladder sludge or stones and this is pretty common for some pigs because of how they metabolise calcium. The vet should check for this by palpating the bladder to see if it's tender. My old boy recently had a huge stone form actually in his penis (the size of a bean!) that had to be squeezed out. I was really shocked as although we've had little stones before in other pigs this boy is 5 1/2 and hasn't ever had anything like that but vet said it could have been triggered by the recent heatwave and pigs getting slightly dehydrated causing the urine to concentrate. He lost about 100g over 2 weeks and started to shed hair before I could put my finger (literally) on what was wrong! The heat also triggered a bout of painful gritty pee in my fat girl who has had bouts of this before. She lost a bit of weight but she had metacam pain relief and extra water and this 'flushed her out' over a few days. She then regained the weight without any support feeding - the weight loss was more an indicator than a problem. We don't normally syringe just water as we worry about them inhaling it but Louise is so very fond of the sweet metacam that she chugged back about 10 x 1ml of water (snatching the syringe!) before she realised it wasn't the drugs she was anticipating! We use a very low calcium bottled water as we live in a very hard water area. It's from Waitrose... we humans just drink the scummy tap water.

Try sitting him on a white towel or sheet until he pees. You may see a pink tint of blood which will indicate either UTI or stones (or both). Orangey colour is normal - even fresh clear pee goes an alarming shade of orange as it oxidises! Not every vet is willing to hand out antibiotics on the off chance but it might be worth politely asking for a decent dose of metacam (ideally the 1.5mg/ml dog strength) to see if this makes any difference. If he does have stones or grit it could be that low levels of pain are just throwing his appetite off. If they have any reason to suspect this it can be confirmed by x-ray (ideally without general anaesthetic) or maybe ultrasound - but they generally have to have the belly shaved for that which isn't popular so these are more of a 'next step' than something you do just on the off chance.

UTI and stones/sludge are kind of run-of-the-mill piggy issues but there are of course other less common things that could be causing his problems - internal issues, unpleasant growths etc. But cross that bridge when you come to it - try and rule out the standard sort of things first. Unless you suspect bloat I wouldn't stop his veggies completely as hydration might be important. Good luck Pepper x

Thank you a million, this is super helpful! Lots to think about here so will keep an eye and see if I can rule out any of these x

 

[PiggiePerson]

Vet has checked teeth but can you see the four front incisors yourself? There are two at the top and two at the bottom. Are they even and level (which is good) or sloping to one side? You don't want to see a slope.

Eating hay/grass etc good but smaller poops mean not getting enough fibre which means hay/grass intake is probably down. Grass is really sparse in the UK at the minute because of the heat but if other piggy is maintaining weight on what's there you are right to think something might be wrong.

They can pick up infections but you'd think that anything respiratory the vet would have detected by listening to breathing or looking for discharge so presumably they ruled that out.

Urinary infections are not as rare as we'd like so I'd think about that. A well established one can cause piggy to squeak when peeing but when my boy got one he never made a sound. However his tummy was wet with pee as it dripped out - there was inflammation and he tried to hold it in because presumably it stung a bit to go. The wet tummy was a giveaway for him. Even without these symptoms you can ask for the urine to be tested for presence of bacteria if you think it's a possibility. They should give you a bottle and pipette, then you just have to sit him in a bowl and wait till he produces a sample.

Even without UTI it's possible for them to develop bladder sludge or stones and this is pretty common for some pigs because of how they metabolise calcium. The vet should check for this by palpating the bladder to see if it's tender. My old boy recently had a huge stone form actually in his penis (the size of a bean!) that had to be squeezed out. I was really shocked as although we've had little stones before in other pigs this boy is 5 1/2 and hasn't ever had anything like that but vet said it could have been triggered by the recent heatwave and pigs getting slightly dehydrated causing the urine to concentrate. He lost about 100g over 2 weeks and started to shed hair before I could put my finger (literally) on what was wrong! The heat also triggered a bout of painful gritty pee in my fat girl who has had bouts of this before. She lost a bit of weight but she had metacam pain relief and extra water and this 'flushed her out' over a few days. She then regained the weight without any support feeding - the weight loss was more an indicator than a problem. We don't normally syringe just water as we worry about them inhaling it but Louise is so very fond of the sweet metacam that she chugged back about 10 x 1ml of water (snatching the syringe!) before she realised it wasn't the drugs she was anticipating! We use a very low calcium bottled water as we live in a very hard water area. It's from Waitrose... we humans just drink the scummy tap water.

Try sitting him on a white towel or sheet until he pees. You may see a pink tint of blood which will indicate either UTI or stones (or both). Orangey colour is normal - even fresh clear pee goes an alarming shade of orange as it oxidises! Not every vet is willing to hand out antibiotics on the off chance but it might be worth politely asking for a decent dose of metacam (ideally the 1.5mg/ml dog strength) to see if this makes any difference. If he does have stones or grit it could be that low levels of pain are just throwing his appetite off. If they have any reason to suspect this it can be confirmed by x-ray (ideally without general anaesthetic) or maybe ultrasound - but they generally have to have the belly shaved for that which isn't popular so these are more of a 'next step' than something you do just on the off chance.

UTI and stones/sludge are kind of run-of-the-mill piggy issues but there are of course other less common things that could be causing his problems - internal issues, unpleasant growths etc. But cross that bridge when you come to it - try and rule out the standard sort of things first. Unless you suspect bloat I wouldn't stop his veggies completely as hydration might be important. Good luck Pepper x

So sorry, just realising I totally missed replying to the top half of your message! Yep all incisors are a normal and level. Vet also checked his chest and that’s fine too, no nasal discharge or the like to suggest any respiratory infections. Have had him on puppy pads today and no pink tinge to his wee which is good, just the usual oxidisation.

Sorry to hear your piggies were affected by the heat! I hope they are all fine now, bless them but good to know how heat might affect a pig so I can bear this in mind for Pepper.

 

[PiggiePerson]

Update:
Hmmm poops are pretty small. Pepper has lost another 22g compared to yesterday morning’s weigh in. Have been syringe feeding today which he is not keen on but still eating hay on his own, but clearly not enough of it! Going nuts for the small bits of veg I’m trying to hide in his mushed up pellets though, so he does still have a good appetite - finding different ways of trying to get more food in him!

If it were to be stones of some sort that is causing him to lose weight, would this affect his poops? Trying to figure out how he can still be eating his hay but producing smaller poops. As I said, it may just be because he’s not eating as much of it as he needs to.

 

[Free Ranger]

It's probably just that he's not eating so much hay. They eat day and night at a terrific rate so any drop in that rate and in a day or so it will show in the poops. Stones can sometimes cause sharp pain and obvious symptoms but sometimes just generalised discomfort. Is his pee gritty? Is it very concentrated? This might be an indicator. Bladder tenderness is a big one but even a healthy boy won't want his bladder poked!

Keep weighing and watching - it's hard when they won't show you what's wrong. I would make another vet appointment tbh for the end of the week - check if you can cancel without penalty within 12 or 24 hours or whatever - because if he keeps losing at that rate you don't want him to stop eating at the weekend or the bank holiday Monday. I can't see him suddenly getting better for no reason before then but if he does you can always cancel the appt. See what you think - but even if he's not lost another 10% by then if he loses every day and doesn't regain you know that there's something.

 

[Merab]

I can’t add any advice but mystery weight loss is so difficult to cope Will.
Holding you in my thoughts

 

[PiggiePerson]

Hi all,

Just an update following on from my last post on the forum, here.

Noticed 2 days ago when cleaning the pig brothers out that Pepper had pale pink pee and kept an eye on this, the next day feeding his cucumber to check the colour as he sat on my tiles. Completely normal colour, and lots of pee too, so all good. Fast forward to today and there are large red (not pale pink!) patches on his bedding, having put down a white sheet to track it. It’s bright scarlet red so took him Peps to the vets this morning and they’ve prescribed the following:

- Pain relief to take for 5 days - Metacam 0.25ml every 24hrs
- Antibiotic 10 day course - Baytril / Enrocare 0.75ml every 12hrs

I’ve read on this forum previously that some vets who aren’t familiar with Guinea pigs tend to underdose meds so I wanted to double check that what he’s been given is in line with what he needs? Any other advice etc much appreciated!

Pepper is fine in his behaviour otherwise which is good, no noises when peeing, and peeing lots meaning no immediate obstruction. Hopefully this is just a UTI and clears up, otherwise will need to go in for scans for stones Vet couldn’t feel any when feeling around his bladder but he didn’t love her poking around his nether regions

Thanks all!

 

[Piggies&buns]

Is it dog or cat metacam? This makes a difference because cat metacam is weaker.

But only once a day isn’t enough for pain killers, they need pain meds every 12 hours due to their fast metabolism. So .25 of cat metacam once a day is likely underdosing

 

[PiggiePerson]

Is it dog or cat metacam? This makes a difference because cat metacam is weaker.

But only once a day isn’t enough for pain killers, they need pain meds every 12 hours due to their fast metabolism. So .25 of cat metacam once a day is likely underdosing

The box says “for cats and guinea pigs” and is 0.5mg/ml if that helps?

Pepper doesn’t seem to be in pain as such as he’s acting totally normal except the coloured pee, though the vet said it was for anti-inflammation if needed.

 

[Bill & Ted]

I agree, it seems rather low, metacam is best given every 12 hours. Simon always prescribes 0.4 ml or 0.5 ml dog every 12 hours for all my piggies that’s needed it but can’t help with the cat metacam
Sending you and Pepper lots of healing vibes and a big hug to you x

 

[Princess Dustmop]

Looks like "dog" metacam is 1.5mg/mL concentration and "cat" metacam is .5mg/mL concentration, so "dog" is three times stronger than "cat." Three times as much volume of the "cat" concentration would be the equivalent dose to the "dog" concentration, so for a dose of .4-.5 ml of the "dog" concentration, then the equivalent dose would be 1.2-1.5 ml of "cat" concentration ... double the dose if you're converting from twice a day to once a day.

We need to know the concentration on the Baytril and the weight of the guinea pig to assess that dosage, as well. Usual dosing range is 2.5-10 mg/kg twice a day. Baytril usually comes in one of two concentration, 100 mg/mL or 22.7mg/mL. Based on the quantity, I'm going to assume you have the 22.7mg/mL (may also be labelled as 2.27% concentration).
22.7mg/mL x .75mL = 17mg ... It might be a bit high, but it would depend on the size of the piggy. If the piggy is close to 2kg, it would be in the normal range. If the piggy is under 1kg, it's definitely higher than normal.

 

[PiggiePerson]

Thank you, this is helpful, I’ll see if I can get the vet on the phone today and get more meds allowing me to have enough to up the dosage. I’m worried about pumping him with drugs for the sake of it when the dosage isn’t even high enough to do anything…

As for the Baytril, it’s 2.5% and Pepper is 1.25kg. Now also worried that this seems like too high a dose at 0.75ml?! Will this have a negative impact?

 

[PiggiePerson]

Also - conscious that Pepper wasn’t given a prebiotic to supplement the Baytril and that this may be a high dosage. I have both Burgess CC pellets and Oxbow CC powder - do either of these contain enough prebiotic (if any) if I syringe feed? How much is recommended if so? Sorry for all the questions!

 

[Piggies&buns]

Also - conscious that Pepper wasn’t given a prebiotic to supplement the Baytril and that this may be a high dosage. I have both Burgess CC pellets and Oxbow CC powder - do either of these contain enough prebiotic (if any) if I syringe feed? How much is recommended if so? Sorry for all the questions!

Syringe feed isnt a probiotic.
A probiotic such as Pro-C, Fibreplex, biolapis can be given. It’s not a medication so a vet often won’t give it. You can buy it yourself from pet shops or Amazon.

They are given a few times a day, either on their own or can be added to syringe feed.
Don’t give at the same time as a dose of antibiotic though - you must leave 1-2 hours either before or after a dose of antibiotic before giving a probiotic

Probiotics, Recovery Foods And Vitamin C: Overview With Product Links

 

[Princess Dustmop]

Antibiotics at any dosage always run the risk of causing digestive upset/reduced appetite; this can be accommodated by syringe feeding to supplement the reduced intake back to normal levels. A prebiotic can help maintain/restore a healthy gut biome, as the antibiotic will kill everything, good and bad; poo soup is another technique for reincorporating good bacteria into the piggy's system, as it is providing that of a healthy, untreated guinea pig to repopulate the ailing piggy's gut.
So for a 2.5% concentration and a 1.25kg piggy, that would be:
.75mL x 25 mg/mL = 18.75mg/1.25kg = 15mg/kg ...
Are you sure that wasn't a once a day dose? Splitting the dose is common, but that number seems high for twice a day ...

 

[PiggiePerson]

Thanks everyone! Ordered a prebiotic yesterday and made some poo soup in the meantime. I just let the poos soak in a little water and gave 2ml of the liquid - is that right? Wasn’t sure on quantity and if you needed to mash the poos…

For the antibiotic it’s definitely been prescribed for 0.75ml every 12 hours. I’m going to get on the phone to the vet as I’ve got multiple second opinions now both on this forum and outside and the consensus has been the same… thanks so much all x

 

[Piggies&buns]

Thanks everyone! Ordered a prebiotic yesterday and made some poo soup in the meantime. I just let the poos soak in a little water and gave 2ml of the liquid - is that right? Wasn’t sure on quantity and if you needed to mash the poos…

For the antibiotic it’s definitely been prescribed for 0.75ml every 12 hours. I’m going to get on the phone to the vet as I’ve got multiple second opinions now both on this forum and outside and the consensus has been the same… thanks so much all x

Yes poop soup is the very very fresh poops (as in literally just produced) from a healthy companion, soak in water for 15 minutes and then syringe just the water to piggy.
You can give this a few times a day, alongside a commercial probiotic.

Probiotics, Recovery Foods And Vitamin C: Overview With Product Links

 

[PiggiePerson]

Yes poop soup is the very very fresh poops (as in literally just produced) from a healthy companion, soak in water for 15 minutes and then syringe just the water to piggy.
You can give this a few times a day, alongside a commercial probiotic.

Probiotics, Recovery Foods And Vitamin C: Overview With Product Links

Perfect, that is what I have done. Just wasn’t sure how much to give so did 2ml.

I’ve phoned the vets to ask for a second opinion on upping/reducing the dosages but as they aren’t open today the line went through to the emergency vets who weren’t able to give comment (no idea why) and advised I book an appointment with the vet when they reopen on Tuesday. Tried another vets to see if they could help and they would need to see Pepper in order to advise just because they don’t have the clinical history. At a loss now whether to amend the dosages myself as per opinions here or continue as prescribed…

 

[Free Ranger]

If you're not seeing serious ill effects I'd try and continue as prescribed. I once got a higher dose than normal and questioned it at the time... I couldn't remember the 'usual' but I did think "that's a lot of nasty to syringe into an unwilling piggy!" But that vet said she preferred to hit the bug fast and hard over 5 days rather than give less for a longer course. I'm sorry I can't remember quite how much I gave though!

If you are seeing piggy get poorly from the ABs that would be another matter - but I'd try dropping the volume a bit rather than stopping the ABs altogether. You have to explain yourself to the vet so it's better if you have solid evidence and a good reason or you'll just look like a panicky Piggie Person!