10-Month old bonded boars have begun aggressive fighting how to repair bond?

esmepickle

esmepickle

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Hi, I need some Piggy-whisperer wisdom to advise me about 10-month old (formerly) bonded boars who have been aggressively fighting now for several weeks. It would have appeared a standard dominance issue with rumble strutting, teeth chattering and teeth baring, however we have also experienced several full-on fights resulting in bleeding noses and cuts to the mouth. Very upsetting as we love them dearly and so wish to repair this bond. We have separated them twice overnight in the last two weeks for cooling off time. They have an 8ft x 2ft c&c cage with mezzanine in a well-lit shed, and they also have an eglu with extended outdoor run for daily lawntime. So plenty of space and they have two of everything. Two days ago we had another incident of bleeding to the mouth, we separated immediately (since re-introduced them by partitioning the run in half and made separate lawn-time areas so they can see each but not get at each other, I have to say they are still acting aggressive towards each!) my vet friend checked them over immediately after the latest fight, she advises neutering, however I've read advice contrary to this.
We just want to do what we can to repair the bond, is it broken with no chance of repair? or should we keep going and try something different? Would be super grateful for any advice. Oreo and Waffle are gorgeous and lovely boys (brothers by same Father) we just need to make sure we do the best by them to have a happy life.
i know I've written alot, but wanted you to get a good picture! Best wishes and thanks,
 
Welcome to the forum
I‘m so sorry your boys are not getting on. You did the right thing by separating them, their bind is fully broken and they should not go back together. They are rather like humans and bare a grudge in that respect.
Unfortunately neutering will not change their temperament, they either like each other or they don’t, in your case they clearly don’t, it also makes very little difference to hormone levels.
You have two options really, firstly just let them live side by side, they will calm down and live quite happily side by side. there’s no welfare issues there at all. The alternative is neutering, then after a 6 week wait, getting each boy a wife (bonding will be required but it’s usually pretty stable if the bonding goes well)
 
:wel: And :agr:

Sadly after a full on fight has occurred once, they should not be reintroduced. A full on fight is bond breaking.
Neutering them isn’t going to make them like each other (neutering only stops pregnancy, but it doesn’t change guinea pig behaviour) and there is sadly nothing you can do to repair a broken bond.

As Bill&Ted has said, they can live happily as single piggies in separate side by side cages for interaction through the bars but they can also be neutered and have a sow wife each.
You can try bonding each with another boar but as rescue centre dating is the best way to find a compatible friend you may find this tricky. Bonding teenage boars can be hard work and some Uk rescues won’t attempt teen boar bonding due to the issues they face.

Boars: Teenage, Bullying, Fighting, Fall-outs And What Next?
A Closer Look At Pairs (Boars - Sows - Mixed)
Neutered / De-sexed Boars And Neutering Operations: Myths, Facts and Post-op Care
 
esmepickle said:
Hi, I need some Piggy-whisperer wisdom to advise me about 10-month old (formerly) bonded boars who have been aggressively fighting now for several weeks. It would have appeared a standard dominance issue with rumble strutting, teeth chattering and teeth baring, however we have also experienced several full-on fights resulting in bleeding noses and cuts to the mouth. Very upsetting as we love them dearly and so wish to repair this bond. We have separated them twice overnight in the last two weeks for cooling off time. They have an 8ft x 2ft c&c cage with mezzanine in a well-lit shed, and they also have an eglu with extended outdoor run for daily lawntime. So plenty of space and they have two of everything. Two days ago we had another incident of bleeding to the mouth, we separated immediately (since re-introduced them by partitioning the run in half and made separate lawn-time areas so they can see each but not get at each other, I have to say they are still acting aggressive towards each!) my vet friend checked them over immediately after the latest fight, she advises neutering, however I've read advice contrary to this.
We just want to do what we can to repair the bond, is it broken with no chance of repair? or should we keep going and try something different? Would be super grateful for any advice. Oreo and Waffle are gorgeous and lovely boys (brothers by same Father) we just need to make sure we do the best by them to have a happy life.
i know I've written alot, but wanted you to get a good picture! Best wishes and thanks,
Click to expand...

Hi and welcome

Please be aware that key to any successful piggy bond is mutual liking and character compatibility. Since pet shop or for sale breeder babies are usually bought for looks and not who they are hanging out with most (unlike those in rescues), boar bonds often during teenage, when the big hormone spikes hit and the babies develop their adult boar identity. You cannot 'repair' a dysfunctional bond.

If blood has already been drawn with a serious full-on bite to the head or rump, then that is the end of the road and your boys should not be re-introduced. Unfortunately, yours sound very much like they have long passed the point as to where a temporary separation might have helped. The grudge potential is simply too big by now for them to be going back together peacefully again. :(

Neutering doesn't change the personality or social interactive behaviour, so in guinea pigs it doesn't work to heal a dysfunctional bond. The calming effect is also not instant and by far not a great as people assume; neutered boars can still churn out clouds of testosterone-laden pee and stink up a room in no time flat when they meet girls.
All that neutering basically does is to take away the ability to make babies after a 6 weeks safety wait to make sure that there is no more live semen stuck in the tubes (which are not removed).

Please take the time to read these guides here; you should find them very helpful in terms of where to go from there:
Boars: Teenage, Bullying, Fighting, Fall-outs And What Next?
A Comprehensive Guide to Guinea Pig Boars
Neutered / De-sexed Boars And Neutering Operations: Myths, Facts and Post-op Care
 
Thankyou so much Bill&Ted, Piggies & Bunnies and Wiebke...and for the supporting links. I feel really upset to read this, however I completely respect and value your expertise. I just hoped that it wouldn't be the case, especially given that up until now they have been amicable and happy. They are very different characters with Oreo timid and cautious and Waffle being super inquisitive and full of crazy energy but its worked so far and we have given them everything that we thought would support their bond. Nature is cruel sometimes hey! I completely appreciate your perspective on getting baby piggies and buying them for looks. This was due to them being family pets and my kiddies falling in love with these two hence we thought that would have the children's investment in helping to care for them, I will be upset to tell the kiddies they won't be repatriated but that's our burden and we will of course do right by the piggies. At present they actually seem much happier having their own space and not phased by each other being nearby, they are grazing and popcorning about on the lawn like nothing happened and they are also synced in their resting/acting time which is what they've always done. So we shall keep this up and re-adjust/buy a few extra supplies to support divided living. I feel overwhelmed by the idea of getting additional sows/extra piggies to pair and feel we can just go along with this arrangement for now.
Thankyou again, I will certainly be using this forum for future advice and support, you are wise piggie lovers! Now I'm just going to have a little cry about it all for while and then get on with this new situation! Best wishes,
 
It is so sad when bonds break.

Its good they are happy now they are apart and they will be very happy living as neighbours going forward. They don’t have to be bonded with another piggy, it is merely an option. The two of them will still be interacting through the bars and this is enough for their companionship needs.
 
By the way, one thing I didn't mention, and I'm sure you will roll your eyes and shake your head at my silliness about this! Is that the first 'fight' that I witnessed I reacted quickly and put my hands in to the c&c to break up. Resulting in me getting a very sharp bite from Waffle, he was literally hanging mid-air from my finger when I pulled my hand up. The kids were with me and hysterical and I had to hold a fleece over a cowering Oreo to keep them apart whilst the kids ran for my husband... Bloody everywhere, black bruising all up my swollen hand. Silly me! But at least I can say I have been through it all with them hey?! :love:
 
esmepickle said:
Thankyou so much Bill&Ted, Piggies & Bunnies and Wiebke...and for the supporting links. I feel really upset to read this, however I completely respect and value your expertise. I just hoped that it wouldn't be the case, especially given that up until now they have been amicable and happy. They are very different characters with Oreo timid and cautious and Waffle being super inquisitive and full of crazy energy but its worked so far and we have given them everything that we thought would support their bond. Nature is cruel sometimes hey! I completely appreciate your perspective on getting baby piggies and buying them for looks. This was due to them being family pets and my kiddies falling in love with these two hence we thought that would have the children's investment in helping to care for them, I will be upset to tell the kiddies they won't be repatriated but that's our burden and we will of course do right by the piggies. At present they actually seem much happier having their own space and not phased by each other being nearby, they are grazing and popcorning about on the lawn like nothing happened and they are also synced in their resting/acting time which is what they've always done. So we shall keep this up and re-adjust/buy a few extra supplies to support divided living. I feel overwhelmed by the idea of getting additional sows/extra piggies to pair and feel we can just go along with this arrangement for now.
Thankyou again, I will certainly be using this forum for future advice and support, you are wise piggie lovers! Now I'm just going to have a little cry about it all for while and then get on with this new situation! Best wishes,
Click to expand...

Many fallen-out boars fall into the category of what we call 'can't live together but can't live apart' fallen-out boars who are happiest with living in a divided/adjoining cage (depending on what set-up you are having) with full interaction through the bars but having their own space. This means not just being in hearing distance but also interacting by scent/pheromones and sight as body language is a fundamental part of their social interaction.

In the case of boars, normally the boar on the losing side would move away without it coming to a fight. This is unfortunately not an option in a cage/hutch set-up. The massive need for cage space with boars in a pet setting is not just there to allow them to rampage but to get away from each other and have an amicable divorce if necessary.

This article series, which I have written for Guinea Pig Magazine last year, may help you to get more of an insight into guinea society and how piggies are wired to live. You and your children should find it very interesting because I have included lots of pictures and for the forum, several videos: Journey through a Lifetime: The Ages of Guinea Pigs
 
Hi, Just wanted to update on Oreo and Waffle after their very sad fall-out. Thankyou very much for all of the links, really informative and enjoyable (My kiddies loved seeing the little new-born piggie wobbly-popcorning on one of the video's!) We have additional c&c run space now so they are both living 'divided-together' in luxury loft apartments! and are having side-by side lawn time every day. Seems to be working very well, they seem happy and healthy, communicating with each other but content with their safe space too. I think I've also become more accepting of our new arrangement and see that its not such a sad outcome and just what nature needed to happen. Thankyou all again :)
 
I just wanted to reply and say sorry about the fall out, but well done for accepting their decision and making the best of it.
Your boys are very lucky to have such a committed owner.
 
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